Revealing a Powerful Journey from Trauma to Resilience and Advocacy -36

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Captain Kim [: 00:00:03

What happens when a woman who has spent decades advocating for women veterans, fighting for policy change, and breaking barriers in government decides to tell her own story. Well, Elizabeth Estabrooks has spent her life championing others, but now she's turning the page to share her personal journey in her upcoming memoir, Broken Into Stronger Places, From Resilience to Resourcefulness. In this episode, we dive into her background, the battle she's fought, and the experiences that has shaped her passion for advocacy. This is a conversation you don't wanna miss. Welcome to Dog Tag Diaries. I'm your host, Captain Kim. Our podcast is where military women speak their truths and share the stories that have shaped their lives. From moments of resilience to hard won triumphs, we hold nothing back.

Captain Kim [: 00:01:03

2024 was a year of incredible milestones for this community. Our voices were heard in over thirty three countries around the world, and we ranked an Apple podcast top 200 in personal journeys in The United States, a testament to the power of authentic storytelling. Now as we launch season four, we invite you to journey with us once again. This is more than a podcast. This is a movement. Let's break barriers, shatter silence, and amplify the voices of military women everywhere. Thank you for listening, sharing, and making this possible. This is Dog Tag Diaries.

Captain Kim [: 00:01:55

In this episode of Dog Dive Diaries, we welcome back Liz Estabrooks for an exciting update. While we've previously explored her powerful journey through childhood and military service, today, we dive into her latest achievement, her soon to launch book, Broken in the Stronger Places. Hello, Liz.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:02:18

Hi, Kim. I'm so happy to be here. You're my favorite podcast. I'm just gonna throw that out there.

Captain Kim [: 00:02:24

Oh my gosh. Well, welcome back to Dog Tag Diaries. I loved that he wanted to come on and do the interview the first time because your story is so interesting.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:02:35

Thank you. I, you know, I was I went on to Portland, which is a four and a half hour drive from me, and I saw I was catching up on the podcast. And, you know, I have to say, Kim, I so appreciate the work that you and Dakota are doing, retreats and this podcast, because you really are giving military women and veterans a place to speak their truth. And for years, we decades, we've been denied that people don't wanna hear the ugly or hard things that women have to say about their military service. And for years, I didn't talk about being a veteran for decades. And then when I started, I didn't speak about it in public places or on panels or anything because everybody was glowing about how great their service was and our thing. And I thought, nobody wants to hear that I had such a shitty experience and that the military wasn't a safe place for me, and I didn't love it. But that I could have had it not been such a shitty place, I probably would have made a career out of it.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:03:32

I just really thank you for giving so many women such a great place to talk about their career, whether it was the good or the bad.

Captain Kim [: 00:03:42

Yeah. Liz, thank you for saying that because actually let's talk about that for a second, because I remember when Dakota and I first started this, and you just said something very interesting how nervous and that there really wasn't a theater or platform for us to talk about our military service because we had to lead by example. So we were like, we have to tell our stories. And I felt sick to my stomach. I feel shame. I feel guilt. Why do I feel all this? This is my story. This is what happened to me.

Captain Kim [: 00:04:17

How did you feel doing your first podcast? Did you have any of those emotions?

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:04:21

You were my first podcast, my friend. Yeah. You were. And so I was nervous and I think I said, I don't know that I can because my story is not like a lot of other stories. And I think your podcast was fairly new, and I and I just kept I don't know that you wanna hear what I have to say. And you both were like, no. You were very encouraging and said, no. We want you to speak your truth.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:04:42

We want you to come on here and tell us your story no matter what it sounds like. And that was very encouraging for me to be given that space to be honest about my experiences. So thank you.

Captain Kim [: 00:04:55

Wow. You're welcome. And how did you feel afterwards? Because I know with Dakota and I coming into it, we felt shame and guilt and those things. And then afterwards, I was like, I feel oddly light and, like, I can breathe.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:05:11

Yeah. Because for the first time, you get the space. You know, I listened to other women's stories for so many years, whether they were veteran women or other women for almost thirty years. But I never told my story. Because for one thing, I was so busy listening to other places. I didn't only feel like there was. And then I was thinking about this the other day, you know, we, especially as helpers, we hesitate to say things. One of the things that I talk about this in my book that I hate the most is when women especially say to other women, oh, you're the strongest person I know.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:05:40

You know what? Let's all agree to stop saying that. Let's just stop because what that does is it tell the person that they don't have the space to be weak or soft or unhealthy, that we have to be strong for you because that's what you want me to be. And you just told me that by telling me I'm the strongest person you know, and I've got this and I can get through this. Well, maybe I don't got this. Maybe I can't get through this. But you just told me you need me to do it for you. And so I spent my life being quiet about the bad things that happened or about the negative things that happened. And what I realized when I snapped when I had my breakdown in 2022 was that that was part and parcel of everything that had built up inside of me for so very long.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:06:29

It was part of my trauma was that I just had to keep swallowing that truth.

Captain Kim [: 00:06:34

Yeah. I'm so happy you wrote this memoir and I can't wait to get into it. So let's just do a recap. We are gonna have listeners listen to your first ever podcast, but let's do a short recap, but then I really wanna take space and dive into this book because it is now I haven't read it yet, but I am once it launches, we are good. I'm very excited. So, yes, go ahead. The floor is yours.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:07:00

So when I joined the military, that's just one of the reason I didn't speak about my service for so long because everybody that I ever heard talk about joining the military, they were all like, yeah, I wanted to do something bright for the world and for The US. And I was, it was all patriotism. My story wasn't that I didn't, nobody can say, oh, way to go, Liz. Thank you for loving your country enough to join the military. No, I was completely pragmatic and it was because it was 1977 and there was a recession and there were no jobs and gas was, you know, 12,000,000,000, the jillion dollars. And I had a rent and a house payment or a car payment and I needed work. And when I was not even 19 yet, and my roommate, she came home one day. She was like, yay, let's join the army.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:07:46

And I said, no, let's not. She went on and on and off the buddy system and we'll go everywhere together and yada yada yada. And so she was a single mother of two children. And in 1977, you couldn't be a single mother in the military. They only started allowing women who were pregnant to remain in the military in 1975 after Ruth Bader Ginsburg, you know, made it happen. And so this was only 1977. So there were a lot of things that were shifting in the army. So the draft had ended.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:08:15

Vietnam had just ended. The draft had ended. And so they were more actively recruiting women. You know, president Carter was a feminist. And so he had opened up some jobs and they, they were ending the, wax and waves, you know, the women's services. And so they were encouraging women to join, but only to a certain degree, like, oh, he had it. Like it's only limited. So we went in there and joy was told that she couldn't join because she unless she gave up custody of her two children.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:08:45

We would have had to have given up custody. And so of course she said, no, I'm not gonna do that. So forget it. And they didn't they were like, well, it could be your ex husband. Oh, wait. I don't care. Just you just can't have children and be in the military. A lot of women have probably heard we didn't make you that child.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:08:59

Yeah. I went ahead and joined and I went, it was the second wave of women to go through co ed at Port Jackson, South Carolina. It was a new experiment, and I talk in my book about some of the research I've done over the years. And when they were trying to recruit when they made the decision to start heavily recruiting women, one of my reviewers in my book said, you don't use this word. It sounds insulting. And I said, but that's the word they used in the in the study and the word was quality. So what they did was they realized that men were not enlisting because it had become a volunteer service. And they were like, we have to have an active volunteer force.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:09:34

So we need to we'll start recruiting women. And so it was what they said. And this is a paraphrase was we have realized we can either recruit low quality men or high quality women, because what it would take to recruit the same high quality men would be too much. And we only have low quality men joining. So let's see what we can do to bring high quality women on because the high quality women were wanting to join. Yep. They always say when we can, we do. So I enlisted and it was you know, you go to the MEPS center, and then we were I'm gonna say boys and girls because we were barely men and women.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:10:11

We were all 18 and 19 years old. So we're, like, we're all being, like, college or high school students talking, and there was camarari. We were all in it together. And so we get to Fort Jackson. You know, they hustle us off the bus with screaming and yelling like they do or like they did then. And so they get us into this haphazard formation. And so the drill sergeant, there all the drill sergeants were lined up in front of us. There were three male platoons and one female platoon.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:10:35

They said, look to your front, look to your back, look to your left, look to your right. This, this is your family. We at your back. We will always be there for you. We'll take care of you. We're your mommy and daddies. We'll take care of you. This we are your new family.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:10:49

And in the very next breath, he said, and for you females out there, and they had this really derogatory, derisive way of saying female, which is why I really don't like it when people say female veterans. I heard that I heard it said in that way during my three years of service so much. That's a true word for you. And so he said, so for you females out there, you need to understand there's no place for women in this man's army. And we are going in the next eight weeks showing you how much we mean that. And if we have anything to do with it, not one of you will get out of basic training. And I talked about this in my book. At that moment, we could almost feel the shift in how the men saw us, because suddenly they were given the message.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:11:36

The girls are the other, they don't belong here and y'all do. And we heard like men started giving us a side. I, I heard someone say, yeah, bitch. It was like, they suddenly went from being our buddies on the bus and in the met center to, like I said, in my book, we suddenly have these red targets painted on our backs. We were the other and we didn't belong there. It was very clear that we intruders.

Captain Kim [: 00:12:01

And so confusing, like these start off a sentence building rapport, building comradery, and then they give the derogatory sentence by saying, oh, and you females. And so, yeah, the rest of the squad is thinking, oh, wait a second. The males are thinking, oh, it's okay to treat you like this.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:12:21

Exactly. And basic training. I mean, there was a lot of sexual sexist stuff that happened. And so it just became more and more evident that that was the world. They would say things like, well, you shouldn't have joined this man's army. If, if you didn't, you know, that's what you have to expect. And I can't tell you how many times during my three years, I heard the phrase, what did you expect by joining this man's army? That's what you get for joining this man's army.

Captain Kim [: 00:12:45

Yeah. I sadly enough, I've heard that as well.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:12:49

You know, people say, oh, but it's changed. I don't really think it has. I think that they did a little bit of work to try to not say the quiet stuff out loud, but now I have seen in the last, you know, few months that they're happily saying the quiet stuff out loud now. And it causes me a lot of concern. And as somebody who dedicated their career to helping people who are victims and survivors of interpersonal violence, And knowing that the rate of sexual assault in the military has not really come down. I have grave concerns about what's gonna happen to women and also to men. You know, a lot of people say, well, it happens to men too. I'm completely aware, but I have spent thirty years working just with women.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:13:29

So that's where I come from. But here's what I also say. Yes, it does happen to men too, but it's misogyny. That is the reason it happens to men too, because when men are sexually assaulted, when men are derided, when men are harmed in the military, it comes with phrases like pussy, bitch, girl. They're using female pejoratives to do that because they're not macho enough because they don't meet that male standard. And so it's an insult being a girl or a woman is an insult. If the military really cared to undo all of that, they would start with their culture.

Captain Kim [: 00:14:04

It's such a condition culture. It truly is.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:14:09

Yeah. And so I spent three years. I got pregnant while I was in, and the sexual harassment when I was in was severe. Like if I was in uniform and on a base, I was being harassed. If I was at work, if I was walking down the street, no matter what, I was being harassed. And after three years of that, it really starts to have an effect, but you don't realize because it's insidious. And so I got pregnant when I was in the army, and they tried very hard to get me to leave. But I make it a habit to always know my rights, even when I was young. That was me.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:14:41

And I knew they couldn't kick me out. And so the captain was trying her level best to force me to sign the paperwork to leave. And when I wouldn't, she got very angry with me. And I had this there was a huge stack of paper. I was three months pregnant at the time, and I had until a month after my daughter was born to complete this paperwork. And what it involved was, and I understand, I logically and rationally, I think it's a good idea. Like, because they I had it. I was gonna have a baby.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:15:10

And so they had to make sure that child was safe. So in my packet of paperwork she gave me, I had to choose a daycare provider that would be $24.07 if it came down to it. And then I had to choose a person separate from her who in the event that they needed penanceated evacuated, she could get my daughter out of the country. And then my mom in Colorado had to complete all the work, acknowledging that this woman was bringing the child to her and that she would take full custody if necessary. And so, and of course it was the 79. So there was snail mail only. So it took a long time and all the paperwork had to be notarized. And so I found this wonderful, wonderful woman who to be Sarah's daycare provider.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:15:50

She was just a fabulous human being. And she was a captain's wife. And then I found a woman who was my neighbor, who her husband was an e seven or e eight. And she was from Texas. And my mom was living in Texas at the time. And she was like, I got you. I got you. I got your daughter.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:16:05

So these two women, they had to connect and the captain's wife. And this is funny. And at the time there were over 300,000 military numbers in Germany and about the same number of dependents. It was the largest number of military members ever. And so they had to have an evacuation plan to get everybody out. This was their, I learned nobody knew, but I learned because I had to, because I had a child, Their evacuation plan was a, b, and c. A was we put all the dependents on a plane and we spent just fly, fly, fly them out of country. B, if we're if we can't, we put them on buses and drive them west because remember it was 1979.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:16:43

The cold war was a big deal. And I was in Kitsigan, which was only 60 kilometers from the eastern block border. And so that was the other thing, was drive, drive, drive, get them west out of whatever. See, see, was, if we can't do the planes and we can't do the buses, we line them up and we march them west. And that was how they were gonna get 300,000 dependents out of country. And so the captain's wife, she was like, don't even worry, sweetie. We got you, your child. And I can't remember the other woman's name.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:17:15

I wish I could remember their names. They're getting on the plane with me. My husband is gonna make sure myself and my children and your daughter and her guardian get on the plane. There will be no marching. Your daughter's going home to Texas. That really gave me a real sense of relief knowing that I had that really strong support and that security for my child.

Captain Kim [: 00:17:36

Yeah. And you had that for your girl. However, there's a lot of women, so that causes a lot of stress too. I mean, you have so many things for women that causes these stressors of like just being in the military, the gender bias, the sexual harassment, the military sexual trauma, which one in three military women endure. And then you have the stress of making sure that your child is taken care of while you're deployed and making sure all in the hands of someone safe.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:18:07

Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Kim [: 00:18:08

And, of course, the guilt of leaving your child.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:18:12

Yeah. And, you know, and it's funny because at the time, they didn't have the combat exclusionary policy. And so, you know, when that happened in 1992, I was like, okay. We were all there. How did, did you imagine that you were gonna say if something happened, did you imagine you were gonna say you women go sit in the shelter? Like, no, we were in the military. We had just as much responsibility as the men to manage all of that if it happened. And so the combat exclusionary policy was one of the most ridiculous policies. All it did was harm.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:18:40

It kept women from achieving. Cause you know, you have to have certain in order to get promotions plus combat pay. Plus, as it turned out, when you came back to The United States, if you were in a combat situation and you had a combat related disability, the VA was like, women aren't in combat. You don't, you can't have those. We can't give you a service connected disability for that because women aren't in combat. Nevermind that you just came out of that situation. And so it was just harmful. And if this administration dials that back, when I was in, there were thousands and thousands of jobs that I couldn't get.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:19:14

I heard somebody on one of your podcasts. She said I was being punished with the body I was in for the body I'm in. I'm in habit. And really just because we're women, just because we have vaginas and breasts, we were being denied these opportunities, thousands of jobs. We just weren't allowed to do for no reason other than the fact that we're women.

Captain Kim [: 00:19:34

Our gender. Yeah.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:19:35

It's the most ridiculous thing. So hopefully that won't happen. But everything about that time that I remember saying one time I had been this I was getting off. We used to ride a deuce and a half out, a two and a half ton truck, a personnel carrier out to the work. And usually there was a lot of that was when a lot of the groping and grabbing happened. Was it getting on and getting off of that truck? And one day I was getting up in this guy, this one guy, he kept going, let me help you, Estabrooks. Let me help you, Estabrooks. I said, don't touch me.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:20:03

I got this. I can get off the damn truck. And so he grabbed me from behind. We'd just gotten off the truck, and he walked up and he grabbed me from behind. And I just it's instinct. I reached up for my cap and I removed it. And as I spun, I swung the cap and I clipped him on the face with the accompanying insignia. And there was a sergeant standing there watching, and we both ended up in I don't remember if it was the captain's office or the first sergeant's office.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:20:26

And I was getting into trouble for doing that. First thing up for yourself. First taking up for myself. And so I was outside my mind at that point, I was so angry and I was fighting the tears and I said, you know what? Send me home. Just send me home. Cause I did not join this man's army to constantly deal with harassment and groping and grabbing and all of the crap and the discrimination that I'm facing. And I'm done. I have been asking you people to do something about it.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:20:54

Nothing happens. Nobody gives a goddamn. So send me home. And that point, I don't know what happened, but they sort of like shifted. And my platoon Sergeant, who was a wonderful man, Sergeant Brown stepped in and he said, Esther Brooks, you can go. And they, they made the other guy say he doesn't want an extra duty. And he and Sergeant Brown went and have a talk with, the men of the company. And I was the first woman in that company.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:21:19

And I was the only woman for six months. And I was one of the few women on the base. And he sent the guy away and he said, you will apologize to her and you better mean it. And so I was walking later and the guy was mopping. He was on extra duty and he called out to me and he said, I'm very sorry. And I said, oh, don't you know what? Don't. Because you don't mean it. He said, actually, I truly am very sorry, and it won't happen again.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:21:42

That mattered to me. He couldn't do anything about all of the other men on base at all ranks who were doing it. I was talking about on my other podcast, myself and two of my friends were walking one time to work. And every time we'd walk by men, they would start grabbing their crotches and flicking their tongues and making obscene gestures and noises and words. And we had there was nothing we could do about it except keep it moving. We just had to keep going and ignore it. And we were told, just ignore it. You can only ignore so much.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:22:11

And I remember this day, while men were in the midst of doing this, this captain was walking past us and you know what? Her job was to salute. And when that piece of shit saluted, he looked at us, and then he looked he made a point, obviously, looking at the man and making this big, obvious wink, approving, basically, their behavior. And I just was like, we don't have a chance in hell. Nobody cares about what's happening to us. And this one young woman, she would just freeze. She would just freeze. She couldn't even hardly speak. It was so awful, Kim.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:22:47

And that was why I left the military because I was like, I can't raise my daughter in this environment. I can't be in this environment anymore. I would have been a very good addition to the other states military, but they didn't give a shit.

Captain Kim [: 00:23:02

Well, you did us all a favor by really tapping into all of this trauma, actually recognizing it. Because, again, right, like, this is just stuff we're subjected to. We're told to just move on. Don't worry about it. Ignore it. And so we tend to do that and it just gets shoved down and shoved down. And so being medical and you doing all your work as well, we know that it manifests. So as we get older and you and I are getting older, it starts manifesting in so many different ways.

Captain Kim [: 00:23:34

It'll start out as little things like migraines and joint pain, but then it goes into, like, reproductive issues, autoimmune diseases, cancers.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:23:47

Yeah.

Captain Kim [: 00:23:48

And so I'm very proud of you for writing this book and getting it out even more. And your title is so beautiful. It's called broken in the stronger places. Where did that come from? Tell us how you So into that title.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:24:05

So the full title is broken in the stronger places from resilience to resourcefulness. So the title comes from, you know, I'm a I have a master's in social work, and I spent almost thirty years working with women who are survivors of interpersonal violence, victims and survivors. And I did not realize until about 2011 that I had MST. I just never thought about it, Kim. I had shoved it all down. I just thought I never talked about being in the military. When I came back from the military, people, like, I would people would be like, tell that story. And for them, it was just a story that made them laugh.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:24:39

But for me, every time that happened, it sunk a little deeper. And my sister, Rita, she understood because I had been in touch with her while I was in Germany too, and she had heard a lot of this stuff. And so she got to the point where she would just sort of step in and change the subject. And so pretty soon people stopped asking and I stopped talking about it. And so then I entered the field of domestic violence and sexual assault in 1993. I I discharged in 1980. And by the way, when I discharged, because I was a single mother, I only did three years. I didn't do the act the reserves app that came out.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:25:13

They gave me my discharge papers and said, you're never gonna be able to reenlist because you're a single mother. We don't want you in the military. So they like, it was an honorable discharge, but they were like, we're done. We're done here. Go away. And all of these years, it just I just didn't think about it. And then when I went into the field of domestic violence and sexual assault, I didn't think about my own experiences, bad relationships, abusive men. I like it didn't even occur to me because I didn't understand PTSD.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:25:39

I had they weren't really talking about trauma and PTSD in the eighties and even early in the nineties. And so as I started doing my work, I started understanding trauma more. Hundreds of years ago in Japan, there was a an art form, a functional art form developed called Kintsugi. So it's a lot of people have probably seen the pictures. It's when a a piece of porcelain or something is repaired with lacquer and then gold or some precious metal is applied over the top of it. And so what they said about that was that those pieces where they were broken, where that scar showed that the scar really enhanced the history and value of the piece, and that even being broken, that piece still holds value. But that piece is also stronger in those broken places because of the application of the lacquer and the precious metal. And so in the early nineties, the field of mental health developed a theory around that.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:26:31

And they started saying that if you have PTSD and you do the work and you go to the treatment and you do the recovery, that you too will be stronger in your broken places. I believed that for a long, long time, but the longer I stayed in the field and the more women I worked with, and especially when I started working with women veterans in 2011, when I was at my graduate school program at Columbia, I started focusing on women veterans and military sexual assault and trauma. And I don't even know why I decided to do that, but I was connected to some women veterans at the school of social work. Columbia University had a, veterans club, but Columbia School of Social Work did not. And so myself and two other women veterans started the veterans club at Columbia University School of Social Work. One thing led to another and pretty soon, every single thing I did, even in my econ class of the papers that I wrote were about military and women and veterans. I really just became focused on that and military sexual trauma. And I wasn't connecting that in my own experiences in the military and my own trauma.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:27:36

And then one day, I was a year and a half in New York, and then I did my internship. I got a fellowship and did my internship in DC at the VA there. And when I was at Columbia, I had done a boxing class and hurt my thumb. So I was having to go to physical therapy at the Washington DC VA, which it was like one of the worst places that harbored sexual harassment that veterans were. It was terrible that like women were experiencing so much sexual harassment at that VA. And I had experienced it at previous VA's, but I had learned you go in, you have a book, you go in, you have your headphones and then you ignore it. You just don't pay attention. The headphones, I had no music because I needed to be able to hear.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:28:15

I had a book I wasn't really reading because I had to be alert. And so when I was sitting in the physical therapy space, the waiting room, and so to my left, there were two men and across to me, there was a man, and then to my right was the window for the check-in. And I could hear the man, the furthest he was an older guy to the furthest left, and he said, hey, beautiful. You want some coffee? I ignored him, and he said it again, and I ignored him. And pretty soon, I realized he was getting up and coming toward me. And I had my legs crossed and he was standing in front of me and he said, Hey, bitch, I'm talking to you. And he swung his cane and hit the bottom of my foot. And nobody said anything, not the other men in there, not the people who worked there.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:28:56

Nobody. So it was just like in the army, I was there all by myself dealing with this stuff. And I snapped and I put down my book and I took out my headphones and I said, motherfucker, you hit me with that cane again, and I will fucking kill you with it. And at that moment, a woman came rushing through the doors and called me back and still everybody was just sitting there and she said, are you okay? I said, no, I'm not okay. Nobody did anything. This man gets to assault me in a VA hospital and no one does anything about it. I'm not okay. And I'm never going to be okay again.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:29:30

So later, I was going home, and I was talking to my boyfriend, and I was just sobbing. And he knew my history in the military. He was one of the few people I had ever really told because I trusted him, and he was a safe place for me to land. So I was telling him about what happened and he knew that I'd been doing all of this deep dive into military sexual trauma. And he said, I just wanna suggest something. I might be out of line. And I mean, he was very gentle voice. He said, have you considered that you have your own military sexual trauma? And I was like, what? Because you don't know when other people tell us.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:30:05

And I was like, no. And so he said, you know, do something. Well, I was like, I'm too busy. I'm in graduate school. I'm work. And, like, I don't have the time to deal with my own shit. So I ignored it. And I carried on.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:30:19

And then I got I graduated in 2013. In 2016, I started my work as the Oregon women veterans coordinator. There are 26,000 women veterans in the state of Oregon. Most of them hadn't had their benefits or weren't using a VA, nothing. And so I knew that women veterans needed to know about me and what their benefits. So I started this grand tour of the state and I was just going around and doing these listening sessions with the women, Nobody from being the only person who got to be in there was me and women veterans. And they were allowed that safe space to talk. The whole thing was, what do we need to do? Like, tell me what happened.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:31:01

And one of the phrases that I developed early on was tell me what I need to know to help you. And I used that phrase with women when I was working in the crisis intervention center that was not military and all the way through until I retired. Tell me what I need to know to help you. And then I would just sit and I wouldn't look at my computer. I had a yellow legal pad and I would just write and I would listen and I would only interrupt if I needed clarification. And so I used that in these listening sessions and sometimes there were five women and sometimes there were 30 women. And so I just traveled all over Oregon doing that for the first year. And I had told my boss, Gus, to be the first priority.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:31:40

So we know what's going on with women veterans in the state. And so they know I'm here. And so what I would do is I would separate everything that I learned into health care, into mental health care. Like, I had all these things, and then I would I would send this paper, like, this written report to my bosses, to the VA, to wherever, and here's what's going on. And so I used that in order to know what I needed to know. And so I was hearing all of these stories. Sometimes it was the first time women talked about being sexually assaulted in the military, but it was a safe place for them. And, one of the things that I, when I would go in, I said, we don't have many rules, but here's one of you.

Elizabeth Estabrooks [: 00:32:19

Absolutely. I will not have any should have, would have, could have, nobody gets to say what woman should have done or what she could do or what you would have done were you nobody. And, you know, we say that it's one in three women or one in four women who are sexually assaulted in the military. I learned it's pretty much all of them. In all the thousands of women that I spoke with since 02/2011, when I started, all but three, all but three had experienced some form of harassment, assault, or rape while on active duty. It's not one in three. It's all of us. Wow.

Captain Kim [: 00:32:52

What an incredible conversation we've been having with Liz Estabrooks. We've covered so much ground today from her early influences to her groundbreaking work on this incredible book. But as you can tell, we're just scratching the surface of her fascinating journey. Our conversation was so engaging and insightful that we simply couldn't fit it all into one episode. So we've decided to continue this rich discussion in part two coming your way next week. If you've enjoyed the insights and stories Liz has shared so far, you definitely won't wanna miss what's coming. So be sure to subscribe or follow us so you get alerted next week when part two of our conversation with the remarkable Liz Estabrooks is released. Thank you for joining us on this episode of dog tag diaries, where military women speak their truth and share their true stories.

Captain Kim [: 00:33:50

Every story told here is a step towards understanding, healing, and connection. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. And remember, your voice matters. Together, we're building a community that empowers, uplifts, and inspires. Stay connected with us. Follow dog tag diaries. Leave a review. And let's continue to amplify the voices of women warriors around the world.

Captain Kim [: 00:34:19

Your voice matters. Share your thoughts and reviews to help us grow, improve, and continue making an impact. Until next time, stay strong, stay true, and keep sharing your story.