Breaking Barriers in Uniform: Lessons in Leadership from LTC Jessica Dunn -46

We feel it is important to make our podcast transcripts available for accessibility. We use quality artificial intelligence tools to make it possible for us to provide this resource to our audience. We do have human eyes reviewing this, but they will rarely be 100% accurate. We appreciate your patience with the occasional errors you will find in our transcriptions. If you find an error in our transcription, or if you would like to use a quote, or verify what was said, please feel free to reach out to us at connect@37by27.com.

Kim [: 00:00:02

What does it take to serve before body armor fit your frame? Before policies caught up to your presence? Before the world changed? To wear the uniform as a woman when the system wasn't built for you and still rise through two branches, two wars, unthinkable loss, and relentless transformation. Lieutenant colonel Jessica Dunn didn't just survive it, she led through it. Now she's breaking the silence and exposing the truth behind the rank, the ribbons, and the resilience. You won't wanna miss this episode. Welcome to Dog Tag Diaries. I'm your host, Captain Kim. Our podcast is where military women speak their truths and share the stories that have shaped their lives. From moments of resilience to hard won triumphs, we hold nothing back.

Kim [: 00:00:58

2024 was a year of incredible milestones for this community. Our voices were heard in over 33 countries around the world, and we ranked in Apple Podcast's top 200 in personal journals in The United States, a testament to the power of authentic storytelling. Now as we launch season four, we invite you to journey with us once again. This is more than a podcast. This is a movement. Let's break barriers, shatter silence, and amplify the voices of military women everywhere. Thank you for listening, sharing, and making this possible. This is dog tag diaries.

Kim [: 00:01:50

Before women were formally allowed in combat arm roles, Jessica Dunn was already breaking barriers. In this episode, we talk with lieutenant colonel Jessica Dunn, coast guard swimmer turned army company commander about leading convos in Iraq, building veteran communities, and the resilience it takes to serve and lead in and out of uniform. Welcome, Jessica, to Dog Tag Diaries. How are you?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:02:17

I'm doing great. It's wonderful to talk to you, another veteran female. So this is wonderful. Thank you.

Kim [: 00:02:24

Yeah. You're welcome. Well, we have a lot to dive into because you have such an accomplished career. So, like, let's talk about that little Jessica. What were you like as a little girl?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:02:36

I was definitely a tomboy. I was in sports. I was in the creek, you know, anywhere outside.

Kim [: 00:02:44

Where did you grow up?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:02:45

I grew up in South Dakota. Belfry, South Dakota.

Kim [: 00:02:48

Oh, I don't even know where that town is.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:02:51

It's the center of the nation. It's definitely a small town farm community and ranching community. And I joined the coast guard because I wanted to see the ocean.

Kim [: 00:03:03

Yeah. So it says here that you were a swimmer in the coast guard. However, they didn't have suits for you to wear, wet suits?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:03:13

Right. I mean, I was the first female swimmer on the US cutter Sherman, and they were all excited. I was excited. So I got the duty assignment. But then when it came to the actual execution, the equipment was really a big choke point because I wasn't gonna be jumping off the hull in Alaska cold, bitter water, right, in the Bering Sea without the sweat suit. So then we realized we just looked around at each other like you can't actually do that. So in the warm water, I'd go in, but the cold water, I'd be hypothermia in five seconds. So the equipment was the choke point in the coast guard.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:03:52

And then I faced the same thing with equipment in the army was, especially on deployment, we get the IOTV, the armor, sappy plates, and all that, and they had larges or mediums maybe, but most had large. And then I was like, hey. You know, back then, it was like a hundred and five to whatever, one ten, one 15 max, maybe, and small, five foot three. And so then I was like, yeah. I want I need small, I guess. And, they're like, yeah. We're not gonna have those for a while. But when they did come in, I gave them to my female soldiers.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:04:30

You know, I didn't want to take out. So the whole deployment had male size large. And it was so funny because it go down to almost my knees. It's like my yeah.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:04:42

And so it really limited my running capability. Yeah. And, you know, so equipment, the biggest thing guys would be like, you know, like, everybody needs to pee. Right? You know, everybody needs to do this on convoys. I'm like, yeah. We're gonna go to the bathroom too. Everybody's like, and I said, okay. We're gonna have a conversation.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:05:03

So I just stopped. I had a whole company formation, and so we're gonna talk about female differences, gender differences, and we talked about it all. I said, hey, medics. If I'm bleeding out and you need to get to my chest cavity, you rip my shirt off just like the dudes. And they were like, really? I'm like, you're gonna rip her shirt off, everybody's shirt off. If that's what you do for the males, you're gonna do it for females. Like, save our lives, please.

Kim [: 00:05:27

To save a life. Yep.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:05:29

Yeah. And then it was for the peeing and stuff like that. I said, hey. Well, we do security checks, and that's what we're gonna do our download, you know, you can piss in bottles like everybody else. Or if you discount, if you clear that sector, we have certain checks and everything we did for both the devices. And I said, well, you know, you're gonna scan your left sectors while she pees on that. We had the thing that was usually the back right tire, whatever. And, if you're looking at you're popping a peek, shame on you.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:06:00

Right? But just like, dude, shame on you if you're looking at him. But that's, like, what we did. I like just we're gonna do it just like everybody else because we all have these human necessities. We're gonna pee. You know? We're not gonna dehydrate. We're not gonna hold it. This is ridiculous. We all have to go to the bathroom.

Kim [: 00:06:16

Because you end up with UTIs. And if you don't treat those and that goes right up into your kidneys, which gets you sick and septic, and nobody wants that out there. Nobody wants to lose a soldier out there just because you can't have a bathroom break.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:06:30

Right. And then holy smokes. When I was talking about, we all had to have uniformity in our uniform, the sergeant majors. Right? We all have to put certain things in certain pockets. And so our left, bottom right on our combat pants was the gauze or in tourniquets, right, for all these procedures, for medical procedures. And I said, well, women, you're gonna put tampons instead of gauze. And sergeant major lost his stuff, man. I was like, dude, hey.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:06:57

It is for blood.

Kim [: 00:07:01

It's just coming out of a different area. Yeah. It's so interesting how that talk is such taboo amongst not just men, but amongst women sometimes.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:07:13

Oh, yeah. You have to.

Kim [: 00:07:15

Yeah.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:07:16

You have to have this conversation. Otherwise, people aren't gonna know what to do, and they're gonna get sick. They're not gonna perform medical procedures, and they, you know, the conservative shame or something. I'm like, no. We all wanna be saved. We want a safe life. So, yeah, I had to have that straightforward conversation. And after a while, like, it was very successful.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:07:37

So then if they encounter another female, another mixed unit or something like that, they're like, hey. You know, captain Dunn, can you go and get that conversation over there? I'm like, sure. No problem.

Kim [: 00:07:48

I'm used to it now. Yeah. And they're used to me coming over here and giving those talks.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:07:57

Yeah. But the other equipment problem was I remember on the deployment range, I had double hearing protection in. I had the inner and then the heart outer, and I was doing we did the m 16, but then we also did the nine and we did grain blotchers, all that stuff, but it pinged off on my physical. And I've been here for, like, two weeks, and they're like, yeah. I guess you needed extra smalls. And I'm like, okay. Like, again, it's with every single thing, right, is this equipment failure.

Kim [: 00:08:29

Yeah.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:08:31

Yeah. Too bad.

Kim [: 00:08:32

It is. It's difficult being a woman in the military for so many reasons, but since we're talking about the equipment, yes, even those, like, you were talking about the frames, if they're not fitted right and they are, like, the ones that hold your pack and are, like, pushing down on your hips for long periods of time, that really does cause issues even with, like, your internal organs.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:08:57

Oh, yeah. For sure. So I just feel that that's why women should be involved in policy making. Right? So if we have women representatives in policy, then that would queue up these things about the lower end, like, rubber meets the road execution of it. So what is needed for certain things for hygiene or care or fits nutrition or whatever it might be, then might stop the mission. Right? If it stops the mission, we should address it. And how do we do that through policy typically? And so, therefore, women should be on policy review.

Kim [: 00:09:34

Well, I agree. If we're gonna be in war and being exposed to all this stuff, then we need to be part of it. It only makes sense. Oh, well, that makes sense. Did you spend most of your life on a farm, most of your childhood?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:09:52

Well, the small town, and my folks had 40 acres close to the town. Right? So I grew up in a McDonald's farm, but my grandfather who served as well in the world wars, he has thousand plus acres up in Lemons, South Dakota. Yeah. I grew up where I was just all American. I had opportunities for access. I fell to the rivers, to the creeks, to lakes, to small town, to science fair, to sports was a wonderful childhood.

Kim [: 00:10:23

Yeah. You mentioned science fairs. So you are really into the science world?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:10:29

I was pleasantly surprised because I was always in sports, so I was considered a jock. You know, I was in the sport, starting team of basketball and track and softball, and I did all the different sports, volleyball. And for the game changer for me really was the science fair. They came around in the science fair and I got to the regional science fair, and then they sent me to Bloxie, Mississippi. And for me, that was huge worldview changer for me, and I got my purple when I was in the science fair. So doing in vitro propaganda, it was basically splicing cells on plants, petri dishes, and then growing another hybrid back in the day in the nineteen nineties. So that was a huge thing for me to cut into commission officer corps with that STEM science background.

Kim [: 00:11:18

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, you talked about your grandfather being in the military during the World Wars. Were your mom or dad in the military?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:11:28

My dad was also Vietnam Veteran Medic, US Army. Mhmm.

Kim [: 00:11:33

So what drew you to the military, and why the coast guard?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:11:39

I just always wanted to serve, and I didn't wanna really go to college right away. And a lot of people just wanna get into the military and do things. They wanna get their hands into things. And for me, I really wanted to join the coast guard because they saved lives. And, I was interested in science, so I wanted to be in the marine science technician. And I waited my whole three year tour, and I got my orders at the end. I could have reenlist for the marine science technician, but I was on a use US Coast Guard cutter, Sherman, and I was the rescue swimmer on that. And it wasn't the one jumping on helicopters like you see in the movies.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:12:17

It's just, dismounting off the hole. Right? And so that was really exciting in the coast guard, but it was so small. So I got out and went into college in California, and my community college was Oakland, California, and I tell people, hey, man. I was a poor college student just like you. So, predominantly black individuals there, and I felt like I had just a big of a right to be there and did clip testing as well. And I was on the coast guard, Cutter Sherman, and that's just testing out. And so kinda navigating that affordable college pathway. And I could have been in the academy as well.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:12:56

In the coast guard, they offered it to me, but I turned it down, which was not smart. I didn't have mentors. Right? So I had high test scores. I just wish I woulda had mentors. So then I pivoted and went into the army later on, started off enlisted as well in the army, and then got approached again for officer candidate school. And that's how I came in that way.

Kim [: 00:13:20

Oh god. Isn't it so interesting how we have all these resources available? But if you don't know how and where to tap into it, like you said, if you don't have mentors to guide you, an unfamiliar territory to you, you're, like, kind of flailing out there going, what do I do? Where do I go? And you're just trying to create your own path, which sounds like that's what you did. So you were in the army, and what was your MOS in the army as an enlisted soldier?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:13:53

Well, I started enlisted in public affairs, and then I went into officer candidate school. And, they said, hey. Well, you can do a whole another branch if you want. And so I went logistics because I can get command time.

Kim [: 00:14:09

Oh, okay. So talk about being a logistics officer. What did you do? What is that role? Just so people who aren't military understand.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:14:20

Yes. Logistics is kinda like UPS and Home Depot for the army. You know, it has all from truck drivers to heavy equipment operators and, pallet drivers to shipping and receiving to putting things on, you know, aircrafts to putting it on ships. So how do we get the Amazon this day and age for the army, and that's logistics? So as a logistics commander, and I started off in transportation, alpha one four one, in the Oregon National Guard, and that was basically trans assets, end up coming full circle eventually, taking command of that unit and taking them to Iraq.

Kim [: 00:15:02

And what year was this?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:15:04

We went to Iraq in 2009 through 2010. Yeah. That was with the forty first Infantry Brigade Combat Team, and that's when women weren't officially in infantry roles, but we were deployed, and that was in infantry, brigade.

Kim [: 00:15:22

Okay. So your first deployment, you're with infantry, a combat unit, and females really weren't supposed to be there. So, yeah, let's talk about what that felt like, all three of those.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:15:38

Right. So women were in logistics, so we weren't considered frontline. And I find it very interesting with the history of everything because in World War two, you know, we had women servicing in medic roles and things like that. But then in 1988, Congress had created this risk rule, which limited women service members from risk of exposure to direct combat, hostile fire, or capture. Right? And so that was the well known thing. Women couldn't be in certain MOSs like infantry or armor, etcetera. But yet we were in infantry units for, like, logistical role, particularly in command.

Kim [: 00:16:17

You could be attached to them. Right?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:16:19

Right. But I was actually the commander of a convoy security company in Iraq that was in the infantry brigade. So the whole thing was in January of nineteen ninety four, the DOD basically said after their experience of operation Desert Storm, that everyone was in the theater was at risk. And so then it was later on after the nineties in some frame that they removed 1994 due to the removed the risk rule. Right? And so, again, just delete that. I don't know what exact time frame they removed the risk rule, but we were operating out there in Iraq and doing these missions. We weren't in the formal MOSs, but we were just doing those positions. So I was in Iraq in 09/10 with other females in the forty first Infantry Brigade doing convoy security, and convoy security was a general overarching, winning hearts and minds.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:17:20

You know, we were servicing infantry units. We were in the infantry brigade. Infantry brigade replaced us, and an infantry we went and replaced an infantry brigade as well from Louisiana and then, you know, Texas. So women were in these infantry brigade combat teams. And so after the Iraq wars, we had over 200,000, not just veteran females, but combat female veterans from the Iraq war campaign.

Kim [: 00:17:51

How did you feel being part of that unit and only having 10 at the time, you said? 10 females. Correct?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:18:00

Yeah. Around 10, and you're coming and going. And it was an honor. Most of us female, we didn't want to see ourselves as females, male or female. And I I guess I say that because in the army, we didn't wanna see ourselves as anything but green because we wear the army green. Right? We just want to serve. And so we didn't wanna see our gender as a negative because we were always trying to combat that. We wanted to be seen as equal.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:18:26

And so, honestly, I feel like a lot of our female thought that, well, if you want us to shave our hair short like guys, we'll do that. Whatever you want us to do, just let me treat us equally. And so we felt it was honorable just to be there, you know, just to be part of the team, And we just thought we were just doing our job.

Kim [: 00:18:47

How were the male soldiers to you?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:18:51

Well, yeah, most males went in my unit, particularly because I was the commander and I was a platoon leader, you know, for years, I did up to almost five years of command time through different commands. And especially in Iraq, a lot of the infantry soldiers had told me this is the first time I've ever served with a female, let alone them being my commander. And so I said, well, I wish you luck with that adjustment, and I'll be doing it too. And, let's just do it together.

Kim [: 00:19:22

Wow. What a positive spin on it, and you really don't give them any room to back out or retaliate against that comment. Retaliate. That's the word.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:19:35

Right. Because I recognize that most men did find that it was their first experience. And I said, well, I hope that is a pleasing experience for you. And I always came in hard. I told the higher line, you know, I always said, let's be ethical, right, and challenging. And I would say most people that have served with me found me to be tough but fair. And I just wanted us to represent the army and brigade and America well. And I think we did that.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:20:07

And a lot of gentlemen at the end said, wow. Someone said, you're my best commander I've ever had. And I think that females, if they do the duration, if they tow the line, that in the end, we have a perspective of and we're moms too. We're good team players. We're willing to roll up our sleeves and work hard, and we're used to working double hard so that people see us as hardcore women that toe our line, you know, that represent women well. And so I think a lot of men were pleasantly surprised, with us females out there doing a bang up job.

Kim [: 00:20:43

Way to go, Jessica. Setting the example for other women.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:20:48

Yeah. I mean, a lot of women were out there doing great work. So for me, I feel that women, you know, before us in the in the world wars and then Desert Storm, all these things, the pre risk rule and removing the risk rule. And now women can fully do all MOSs. You know, we've come so far and, you know, I really feel that it's not gender. It's can you do the job? Can you do the physical x. Right? And then people always ask me about APFT and those kind of things. I said, you know, honestly, I went to the male standard.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:21:23

I was very athletic. I mean, I could do 50 pull ups. I could I always went in my APFT. I always did a hundred and a hundred and a hundred. You know, I always did, you know, like, more than a hundred push ups, more than a hundred sit ups, then, you know, my run times were good. And so I was up there. So I feel like same thing with Olympic athletes, you know, men or women, you know, if you can do the task, then just judge me by that. You know? And I was in boxing and I went when I was in USA boxing, they didn't have women boxing before the Olympics back in those days, so I just did smoker bouts with guys.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:22:00

That's all I had. In high school, I wanna do baseball, not softball, so I was in a guys' team. And that's just kind of been my life is that I just wanted to have access to those sports and the same opportunities. And if I could do it just as well, I feel like, why not?

Kim [: 00:22:16

That was one of the fun facts about you. You played in a male baseball team in the nineteen eighties.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:22:21

Mhmm. Yeah. And so if you're a good positive attitude and team sport and I was always put in because I was a pitch runner. I could run faster. So and then, you know, I did pretty average on hitting and stuff, and I played second base and shortstop. And, I mean, you know, I'm small and agile. And that's the thing too is I'm a short person. You know? I'm five foot three, and people always would make fun of it and this and that.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:22:48

And, like, well, I'll keep up. You know? I can fit in a army vehicle, transportation, or anything, and I don't complain because, you know, I can fit in every vehicle.

Kim [: 00:23:01

It sounds like you set the example for males and females, but did you notice any of the females having any hardships in your tour?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:23:12

Oh, yes. They did. But I feel that anybody I can work with anyone. If you just have honest conversations and being transparent parent with everything. And I just let them know that we're gonna work hard together and we're gonna achieve the mission together. If you stay focused on the task and the mission, I feel like it's just so unifying that we don't have time to be jealous of, or we don't have time to throw spears at one another when we're too busy operating at a high functioning level and just achieving the mission. And so everybody can get behind that.

Kim [: 00:23:45

Yeah. I was just gonna say when you have a mission that's so critical, it really is important to have that unity and have those soldiers feeling safe. And you do seem like a very people type person, so it seems like these women and males would be very comfortable coming to you and talking to you about their hardships, if there were any.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:24:06

Yes. You know, that's interesting. I had a little bit older school even back then, philosophy. I believed in the NCO corps. And I always said, you know, work it through the through the channels. And then when it gets to me, it's either gonna be really great or really bad.

Kim [: 00:24:27

Oh, god.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:24:28

I mean, that's a little bit different perspective of nowadays too because I wanted to elevate the NCO corp as well that you should be able to work it out the lowest level possible.

Kim [: 00:24:38

Yeah. Your chain of command is super important. Yeah. We all have specific detailed job descriptions. So, yes, working up the ranks because you're busy taking care of more critical issues, hoping that your soldiers at a lower level can really take care of those issues. It's so important as a leader, I think. And I look for this too, going for jobs and stuff. Make I always check to see who the leader is because that's how everything else is going to perform in that environment.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:25:07

Right. You know, and that's the thing too is I think as a as a female, I had a different perspective about things, and couple of different examples of that is I was then the first time that an emotion was used as a call sign, and my call sign was anger six.

Kim [: 00:25:27

Okay. Let's talk about that. How did you get that?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:25:30

Well, my, task force commander was like, alright. Done. We gotta get our call sign locked in. You know? And he was adamant about it starting with an a, and I was like, a. And I put on the spot a lot of things in military five minute decisions. Right? And so I was like, apples, alligators, anteaters. I was like, I'm so angry. This pisses me off.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:25:53

So then I'm like, I'm angry. There you go.

Kim [: 00:26:00

I'd love to hear how nicknames develop.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:26:02

Yeah. But, you know, honestly, most women say and I have to say I'm either a b, I'm either a x, which are they refer to probably LGBQ areas, or I'm a whatever, sleeping with whatever superior should get through the ranks. Right? They usually refer to those three things. I said, well, I'll refer to the b's and I'm angry sick, and people aren't gonna mess with me. Well, there you go.

Kim [: 00:26:30

I love that you were able to set down those boundaries.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:26:34

Yeah. I'd rather be firm and fair.

Kim [: 00:26:36

Yeah. I saw something that was interesting. You were serving in Iraq and navigating the risks when the front line no longer existed. Can you explain that?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:26:48

That's what I was referring to about the risk rule. Right? That's why women can serve in supposedly infantry. But, you know, from operation Desert Shield and Storm, DOD says, well, this risk role is really silly because everybody is serving in a chaotic environment. So therefore everyone is in threat, is in the risk zone. And so they realized like and all the commanders then were like, well done. You know, you're one of our top commanders. You're a logistics commander. We need you out there.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:27:16

And convoy security is owned by trans units. Right? That is your mission. So they're like, hey. You're one of our top trans. We need you there. So a lot of commanders, I don't know if they talked about it and said, should we have females out there? And they're like, I don't I don't know. They're like, this risk rule on off. What is it? You know? We were there in operation Desert Shield and Storm, so they just did it.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:27:39

They just throw her in there. And so I don't know if we're at liability or not for that, but we were out there. There was female commanders, you know, and infantry units, even in the Iraq wars. Right? So it was chaotic. And so our trans units of, Alpha one for one, you know, we were going from Kuwait to Baghdad all the way through to Syria. We had the longest hauls. We're out for fifteen days at a pop where the male infantry units, you know, they're kinda peeved, but they had a thirty minute halt. We were doing our ultimate mission of convoy security, so we were all over that area.

Kim [: 00:28:19

It sounds like you did a really successful job hearing that you're one of the top commanders.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:28:26

Yeah. We did a great job. And I think it's because I asked for a mixed unit. I had the best mechanics, the best medics. We had infantry as well. And then I asked for the Kuwaitas, soldiers when I got there. Those are the soldiers that were brought in, you know, on orders call recalled back, and they had already been in that area. So, basically, I already had them with the intelligence.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:28:52

So I put them in the forward recon team. And so if you think about that, I had the forward recon assets. I had the best mechanics so I could do self recovery missions and medics. So I was out there for fifteen days at a time being left alone just doing my thing because I had the best blend where the infantry units just had straight infantry. They didn't have the mechanics. They didn't have the trans people in background or medics. And I like the diversity of those MLSs so that we could be self sufficient out there.

Kim [: 00:29:25

Yeah. I was just gonna say smart woman. It makes you more efficient.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:29:30

Yeah. You know? And talk about that. You know, my leadership style is still different because, I was hard in the beginning, and then I really lightened up. And then people started liking me, of course, after that, and then would let them out just wanting to report in because we were doing bigger missions than just company size elements. So I'd be out there, of course, you know, every I have to have a and b platoons, and then we start doing squad missions. So we were like ants going everywhere, all over the air that region. But my point is with that is at the end of the deployment cycle, I also had another company, attached to me because they wanted me to train the incoming replacement for game combat team. And, we had it was at Texas over Indiana on either side of my left or right.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:30:17

I can't remember incoming or outgoing on that, but my point was it was all, infantry brigade combat teams, and they wanted me to stand up another unit, company sized element to, train them coming in. So I had my company and then another company of a training asset. And so, again, we had women. I said, you know, I'm a female commander. Right? And these are all infantry commanders, male again. And, you know, sir, I'm a female. He's like, yes. But you're the best.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:30:49

So I knew I had the politics in that, and I just, like, really I just proved myself with our own great combat team. Do you want me to really do that again? And so, I did. And the task force commander incoming was like, well, done. I was here in five, six while I work in all and all. Like, well, if you want the con ops or nine, ten, here it is. But my point with the leadership side is the last part, I also did angry automotive where everything I remember listening, and Obama was on there. President Obama, and I was listening. I was in a coming in off convoy, and he said, hey.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:31:27

Something Afghanistan. And I didn't get the whole clip, and I said, I wonder what this is gonna mean for us. And, sure enough, it meant, like, all of our equipment, we had ninety days at the end of our deployment cycle to have them come through Angry Automotive and then get them to Afghanistan. So I was like, holy smokes. So we had company sized element in convoys, coming off that doing turn in for get the equipment to Afghanistan on time, and then also a training company for a replacement brigade combat team. And it was just a lot, and I was going through that. And I said, you know what? Even in all this, I want every one of my lieutenant to have a week of command time here in combat. And all my leadership was like, done.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:32:11

You're crazy. You're crazy. Why would you do that? I said, you know what? This is the best time. I'm here. They can consult me, and they're experts already in convoy missions. Why not? And so they did a bang up job. But you know what? Before, they might have been hating on me a little bit, but after having command time for a week, they were like, oof. It came back from me.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:32:32

Right?

Kim [: 00:32:33

I mean, you couldn't ask for anything better. One, you're empowering them, the next leaders, and then they have that subject matter expertise right there at their hands.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:32:43

Right. And they did so great, and they've become the best officers now too. And I just feel like that's, you know, mentorship. Right? That's empowering. That's giving them an opportunity to be commanders, you know, in combat because not many of us have that opportunity. We might have it stateside, but really yeah. So that I thought that was great, and I was poofly down on that for a while. But after it worked out, nobody died.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:33:09

You know?

Kim [: 00:33:14

Jess, I love that you just brought that all the way through. Do you remember when we first started talking and you were like, gosh. I wish I had that mentorship in the coast guard. You pulled upon that moment in your life and provided that for all the leaders. I love that that you made that full circle. Well done.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:33:34

Thank you. And then, yeah, I just think that we need to provide that leadership that we never got. Right? And then when I came to Stateside, when I was in Iraq, I remember this one moment clearly, and she was in my unit. She was a marine, and she was across the desert. And she looked at me and she saw me, and she came walking right up to me and slid me, and she goes, ma'am, press on. And I was like, you too. And I said, I appreciate you so much. And I, to this day, it was moving for me because that's how few and far between females were in Iraq.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:34:13

And you could just, if you spotted them, you wish you went out of your way to basically salute them and say thank you. Thank you for your service. I know you're, you know, treasuring hard, little crawling, but keep doing it. Press on. So in reflection, when I came back, when I brought everybody home, I was so happy, so pleased. I'm like, thank you, God. We brought everybody home. Unlike sister Elle, you know, in our brigade, I was so pleased that from all the, you know, IEDs and everything that we were able to bring everybody home.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:34:45

And then I helped stand up the sisters in arms in Oregon, and I was surprised. There's after a month and a half, we had 80 female, all ranks, enlisted officer, coast guard, air force, and army in the state of Oregon, because we don't have a major military installation there, came out and said, we wanna be part of this. And the governor at the time was female, governor Brown. She's like, this is so powerful. And I remember the general saying, wow. This is the first time Kennedy was in a meeting and then at Capitol and these different events with these females. He goes, I this is kinda intimidating. And I said, sir, shame on you.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:35:21

This is how we feel every day in the military.

Kim [: 00:35:24

Wow. He got a little taste of about how women feel.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:35:29

Right. I mean, women are being courageous every day for just being in the military.

Kim [: 00:35:35

Yeah. How was it after trying to reintegrate back into society? You talk about it's so important to find your tribe after you get out of the military. And so you created that two ways, one in Oregon and one in Texas. Mhmm. So talk about that those two events.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:35:53

Well, in Texas, you know, I went to higher education and, for being a professor of military science, I had one tour in Oregon State University. So then I tried pivoted to higher education. And then I'm here at Texas State University, and they come up to me, veterans, the veterans alliance at Texas State saying, hey. We would like you to be our future president. I I thought that was abnormal. And I said, well, surely there's some young veteran that can use it. And, they're like, no, ma'am. We really have a representation problem.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:36:27

I said, what are you talking about? And so I said, well, if you can't find another president, let me know. Of course, I won't let you fail. And so we, you know, got to become president. And I was surprised that, the Veterans Advisory Council and in the Veterans Alliance student body that, you know, we have come a long way in advocacy advocates, you know, the military spouses, the military community. But when it comes to representation, we still need veteran actual veterans and service members in those primary roles as chair, cochair, officers elected, right, and not just civilians. And I say that because it strikes me when I was here in college campus that they just didn't understand the culture and the meaning, what these coins meant, what this uniform meant, why these days are so important, and it wasn't well for our morale. And so, basically, I unaffiliated and then I'm pushing for chair and cochair of veterans. And then we made sure that the officers and the veterans aligned to Texas State are all actual service members or veterans, not just civilian, advocates.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:37:40

And we love civilian advocates, but you still need representation is my motto.

Kim [: 00:37:46

Yeah. And I'm glad you were there for that. Were you able to provide support? Because most of the time, the intention is good behind the civilian movement. But it's just that the ignorance behind it, maybe they haven't been educated on it. So they don't know how to act, and they don't know what the coin means, and they don't know the importance of the salute between officers and unlisted. So did you notice a a shift with them when you were able to educate them? Were they to learn?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:38:18

Yes. And, you know, most of my roles have been teaching and training as you're doing. Right? That was definitely my role in the military. I was also a special assault, right, rep in the army, and I'd always have to educate as we did. And I just think that representation matters. And when it comes to veteran organizations, because we have a lot of them out there now. And it's great that we are with our allies and our advocates, but we need to stay focused on our primary mission. And for me here at Texas State, for me, the primary mission is those combat and stable veterans trying to navigate the campus.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:39:01

For example, we don't have a central hub yet so that if there is a veteran that has a disability and they can't physically walk, they have to go to five different offices. I think we need to fix that, for example. And only veterans really understand the importance of this because I'm surprised still to this day how many veterans I'm helping get claims started. Even in Texas, the red state. Right? We have a lot of veterans that have been forgotten in the sense that I think that if your last ETS thing tour was, say, in Korea or, you know, somewhere else, right, that it your last duty station matters a lot and how you out process and transition. Because if you're around a major military installation on your last tour, you've probably had a better experience in transitioning. You probably had Hire Heroes. You had probably DOD spill bridge program.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:39:56

You had a VA, and you probably got access to claims. And if you're in a remote duty assignment or state that doesn't have a major military installation like Oregon, your transition is not as good, period. All stop.

Kim [: 00:40:10

Yeah. I do like that there's more veteran resources and nonprofits coming up to help with that because you're right. Coming back in the states like Oregon or into rural areas where there's not, like, a VA right down the road that you can pop into. Otherwise, you're on the phone waiting for hours to talk to somebody or getting put here or to the next person, and that gets frustrating, especially if you have PTS on top of it.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:40:39

Right.

Kim [: 00:40:40

So I'm proud of you. Thank you for all that you do.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:40:43

Oh, yeah. Everybody's doing so much. So many veterans are doing so much. And nowadays, I've been pretty excited because I've been getting I'm really excited to get the younger generation active in legislative actions. And so that's what I've been working with MOA on, Military Officers Association of America. And I did that in Oregon and here in Texas and every legislative year. We bring some veterans up to the capital. Now I've been focusing on younger generation because to be honest with you right now, it's really our boomers and generation x, veterans. So really the Vietnam and the Iraq, the older Iraq War Veterans that are still doing this work. And a lot of these boomers in, Vietnam, you know, they're in their 70 or older, and we need to enlighten the Rucks Act. We need to take that, that flag from them. And we need to start doing this work on legislative action because we assume that somebody's doing it. Somebody's getting it done and passing this house bill, talking to the representatives. And we need to build a pool of young advocates in their twenties to 40. And so that's what we're doing here in Texas.

Kim [: 00:41:55

That's a great idea. And giving them the mentorship, like, that's the theme here. And I don't wanna say putting the old people with the young people, but that's pretty much what it is and having them lead the way. And then the new people can come in with their fresh ideas and integrate into that environment. I think that's really smart.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:42:15

Yes. And because freedom is not always free. Right? We have to keep bringing those messages. We have to keep bringing it, and we can't let it, forget. And then the other thing is I think we need to get more involved in k through 12 education and talk about good citizenship. What does that mean? Patriotism. What does that mean? What does that look like? And, you know, getting more involved with the schools. And, so I had some thoughts about that too.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:42:41

But, yeah, here, I feel so passionately about mentorship that I didn't know just any student. They don't have to be veterans, but I stood up a mentorship program in McCoy College of Business and my graduate, students. So 40 of them were graduate students were paired with c suite CEOs out there in the field for three month run virtually, and they did brown bag lunches. And then five of them had job offers after three month run. And so it doesn't have to be this huge one year commitment. Like, you know, ACP, I'm a mentor in that too, but it's a longer commitment. That's a year. When you think about it, these days and age, a lot of people don't even stay in their job for a year.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:43:19

So why aren't we two in one year cycles?

Kim [: 00:43:23

Everything's accelerated these days. Yeah. Mhmm. Well, sticking on the mentorship, if you were to give military women who are in the military now or thinking of going in, any advice, what would that be?

Jessica Dunn [: 00:43:38

My advice to them is you need to be your own cheerleader. You need to encourage yourself, you know, have these models for yourself. I always used to have, like, five models that I run through, for example, any one time. And I remember myself telling myself is that do what grandma would be proud of. Right? And so if, for example, if she didn't think that would be good on CNN, don't do that. Right? But then she'd probably tell me, take the promotion anyway. Who cares what other people say or the guys say? Just take the promotion anyway. You know? Do your best and lean forward into it anyway.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:44:13

And I just always assume that people were talking negatively about me, and so then I don't care what other people think. I mean, I do and I don't, but in the end, I care that I'm doing it's between me and God, really. Right? And so if I feel ethically that it's I'm doing my best and it's between me and God and that I'm following the army values and I'm doing my best, then, you know, he can judge me. And so I think women really just have to have your own positive self talk. It's you know, it is all these things are mental health, but I always exercise. I always try to eat right. I don't really do that much alcohol or smoking and, you know, you just try to have the whole armor of God, really. You just really live that motto.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:44:59

Right? And so if you're a Christian or non Christian, it doesn't matter. But my point is that you have to mind, body, and spirit really be strong, and so you have to do that for yourself. If you take care of yourself first, then you can take care of others. The cup runneth over, and so you can really service other people.

Kim [: 00:45:19

Yeah. Super powerful advice. Thank you. And, lieutenant colonel Jessica Dunn, thank you so much for being on Dog Tag Diaries. We really appreciate you, angry six. I love it.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:45:34

Well, thank you so much. It's an honor to be on here, and it's wonderful what you're doing, giving veterans and women veterans voices. And the more we can do that, we get better at it.

Kim [: 00:45:48

Yeah. We would love to have you come to one of our we have a nonprofit that we provide no cost retreats for military women, and we incorporate positive psychology meets holistic healing. And these events are just so beautiful. It's about creating community, but also those positive self talks as well. It's so important.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:46:09

No. That'd be outstanding. I think it'd be great.

Kim [: 00:46:12

Thank you again.

Jessica Dunn [: 00:46:14

Well, thank you.

Kim [: 00:46:18

Thank you for joining us on this episode of Dog Tag Diaries, where military women speak their truth and share their true stories. Every story told here is a step towards understanding, healing, and connection. Share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. And remember, your voice matters. Together, we're building a community that empowers, uplifts, and inspires. Stay connected with us. Follow dog tag diaries. Leave a review.

Kim [: 00:46:50

And let's continue to amplify the voices of women warriors around the world. Your voice matters. Share your thoughts and reviews to help us grow, improve, and continue making an impact. Until next time, stay strong, stay true, and keep sharing your story.