Overcoming Adversity: A Military Woman’s Journey Through Gender Discrimination and Sexual Harassment -2

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Dakota [: 00:00:04

Join us as we delve into the raw and powerful story of a military woman who faced unimaginable challenges within the ranks. From bullying and gender discrimination to sexual assault and public humiliation. Her journey is one of resilience, strength, and ultimately, triumph. Tune in to hear her story and be inspired by her courage in the face of adversity. This is a podcast you don't wanna miss.

Kim [: 00:00:32

Welcome to Dog Tag Diaries, where military women share true stories. We are your hosts, Captain Kim.

Dakota [: 00:00:40

And Captain Dakota. The stories you are about to hear are powerful. We appreciate that you have joined us and are eager to learn more about these experiences and connect with the military women who are willing to share their stories in order to foster community and understanding.

Kim [: 00:00:57

Military women are providing valuable insight into their experiences, struggles, and triumphs. By speaking their truth, they contribute to a deeper understanding of the challenges they face and the resilience they demonstrate.

Dakota [: 00:01:11

We appreciate your decision to join us today to gain insights and knowledge from the experiences of these courageous military women. Thank you for being here. I have on guest Kim Liszka, aka Captain Kim. She will be talking about her time in service and her experiences as a woman in the military, and this includes sexual harassment and gender discrimination. She'll also talk about how is it has impacted her and how she has overcome those barriers. Thank you for joining us, Kim.

Kim [: 00:01:50

Oh, hey, Dakota. Thank you so much for having me.

Dakota [: 00:01:54

Of course. So we're gonna start off. Will you just tell us what you were like growing up?

Kim [: 00:02:01

Oh, yeah. I loved me when I was little. I was like, I was such a super vibrant kid, big personality, loved using my imagination, super creative, very active. If I wasn't playing Dukes of Hazard on my bike with the neighborhood kids, I was producing and directing plays for the neighborhood or choreographing my gymnastic routine for when I went into the Olympics, or writing and performing songs so I could be the next Madonna. I wish I can find that those lyrics too. My first song was boy crazy. Yeah. I was definitely gonna rule the world.

Kim [: 00:02:40

I had all these big dreams and some of them came true. So the latter half of my life I have left, I'll try to make the other ones come true.

Dakota [: 00:02:48

Yeah. I love that. So what made you join the military?

Kim [: 00:02:53

Well, I wanted to be an actress first and be on the big screen and make those take your breath away type moments for the audience. And then instead I tried college and I majored in exercise science and athletic training. I was a cheerleader on a co ed squad and then joined a sorority. And I had a lot of fun, but I just felt like it wasn't my path. And I was a bit lost in finding my direction, like, to me. That feeling of being able to be part of something bigger felt really good. And I came from a long family lineage of military men, my dad, my grandpa. So that really was the turning point of going into the military.

Dakota [: 00:03:51

Did you have any females in your family go in the military?

Kim [: 00:03:56

No. Not that I know of. Okay. They were all just my dad and my 2 grandpas.

Dakota [: 00:04:01

Yeah. That's awesome.

Kim [: 00:04:03

Yeah. I joined in 1994. Basic training began in 1995 in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. And I remember it being quite the culture shock. I was coming from this college environment where it was very unsupervised to a very regimented supervised environment. So and still till this day, I don't know where Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri is. I don't. I remember we got off the plane and we were pushed onto these cattle trucks and told to put our heads between our knees until we arrived at base, and I had no idea where we were.

Dakota [: 00:04:46

That's pretty intimidating part Yeah. Of basic. Yeah. Definitely lots of scare tactics.

Kim [: 00:04:53

Yeah. You have no idea where you are.

Dakota [: 00:04:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're yelling at you and Yeah. All that.

Kim [: 00:05:01

Yeah. They've definitely scared me. That's for sure. I remember getting to the base and being corralled off the buses by highly motivated, I say highly motivated, allowed drill sergeants and standing information for our shakedown, and then them giving us physical activities to do. If you remember pushups, flutter kicks, front back goes, until we were exhausted, which didn't take too long.

Dakota [: 00:05:27

Yeah.

Kim [: 00:05:29

So after that, they showed us to our barracks, And I was told that we were the 1st company to have co ed barracks at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.

Dakota [: 00:05:41

Wow.

Kim [: 00:05:41

And not co ed like males on one floor, females on the other floor. Like males and females actually share the same floor.

Dakota [: 00:05:50

That's interesting. How did you feel about that?

Kim [: 00:05:53

I didn't know any better at the time. I mean, I didn't really know the military world. My dad and my grandpas didn't really talk too much about it, so I really didn't know what to expect.

Dakota [: 00:06:06

Yeah. And I'm sure even if they did talk about it, it would have been a different experience from what they went through and the time they went through versus what you're going through, and your perspective as a female too.

Kim [: 00:06:18

Yeah. That's a good perspective. Yeah. Well, looking at it now, I don't think it was, the best idea now that I'm, I've learned a lot about the military. And due to all the military sexual trauma, having males and females on the same floor just doesn't sound like a good idea for me. And I don't even I don't even know if they do that anymore. Do you?

Dakota [: 00:06:42

When I went through basic in 2009, they were on the same floor, but not in the same barracks. They were on the other side of the hall. So there's that separation. We weren't, like, sleeping in the same room. They were on the other side.

Kim [: 00:06:57

Oh, okay.

Dakota [: 00:06:59

As you went through basic, was there any incidents of sexual assault or sexual harassment or anything like that that you knew of?

Kim [: 00:07:09

Yeah. Unfortunately, I do know a couple of females, and one of those being myself. I was sexually harassed by male soldiers after lights out, which quickly made me feel very unsafe in my environment. I started to get anxiety. I started having difficulty sleeping because my mind felt like it was on high alert just to keep me safe.

Dakota [: 00:07:35

Yeah.

Kim [: 00:07:36

And I learned quickly that if you wanted to use your voice and confront the issue, you would have your company waking up in the middle of the night and doing Frank Bacchos in the woodchip pit. And after long days of training, nobody wants to be woken up to do more so called training. And that was pretty scary for me.

Dakota [: 00:08:00

Yeah. So it sounds like you didn't feel safe or comfortable coming forward about it because there's consequences not only for you, but the entire barrack area. Yeah. Wow.

Kim [: 00:08:13

Yeah. And you didn't wanna be that person. You didn't wanna be that person to make your company get up in the middle of the night and do extra training, and then they're exhausted when they wake up the next day and have to do their regular training.

Dakota [: 00:08:26

Yeah. And that alone would come with additional challenges because I'm sure everyone would be really mad because they would have to wake up, exercise, and then get up early in the morning and do it again.

Kim [: 00:08:38

Yeah. And basic training was just tough in general because you're going into an environment where it's extreme physical activity to get you ready to be the soldier that they need you to be for war. So doing extra, like that nighttime is kind of for recovery for your body, so you can perform the next day.

Dakota [: 00:08:58

Yeah. That makes sense. That sounds like for you, it wasn't because you're constantly worried for your safety and didn't feel comfortable.

Kim [: 00:09:07

Yeah. And speaking with a couple other women who had similar incidences, some wanted to move forward and, and tell the higher up, and then others were just like, didn't feel safe either. They were like, No, let's not cause any more chaos than there already is in in this environment. So Wow. Yeah. That's tough. Yeah. So that was my first negative experience with it. And I believe it's, like, one out of 3 females who get sexually harassed or assaulted in the military.

Dakota [: 00:09:43

Yeah. I was looking up some recent statistics, and sexual assault in 2023, the military reported 8,500 cases of sexual assault. And then sexual harassment, 6.8% of women experienced sexual harassment in the military. So it's pretty large number, unfortunately.

Kim [: 00:10:04

Yeah. I wonder what it was like. I wonder what it was back in 1995. It's hard to say because a lot of the cases go unreported. Doctor. KRISTEN JOHNSON

Dakota [: 00:10:13

Oh, absolutely. And with people not feeling comfortable, there is a lot of underreporting, and I'm sure it wasn't even on the military's radar at that time. So I know it recently became something that they've been trying to crack down on and make people, especially women, feel safe.

Kim [: 00:10:33

Yeah. Which is beautiful because now things are going to happen. But having the space to, and the comfortable ability to go and report it is the big step because then something can be done about it.

Dakota [: 00:10:48

Absolutely. And then there's resources available as far as, like, counseling and work through that traumatic event because that can impact the rest of your life if you experience that.

Kim [: 00:11:00

Oh, yeah. That's so true. It stays in you, and you definitely store it inside.

Dakota [: 00:11:04

Yeah. Absolutely.

Kim [: 00:11:06

I learned also, unfortunately, there was gender discrimination back when I was in basic training and my AITs. There was a drill sergeant, male drill sergeant, that made it very clear that the military was not a place for women. And he would make an example out of us. And he definitely chose me to be the example. And just, I learned quickly, if you performed at a high level as a female, you were gonna face scrutiny. And according to them, I was the 1st female they saw to extend the scale on the physical fitness test and were traveled across the base. They had the stats. They were like, sit ups, 120 sit ups in 2 minutes,

Dakota [: 00:11:55

Dang girl.

Kim [: 00:11:55

90 push ups in 2 minutes and a sub 6 minute mile. And so initially I was proud of all this because I performed like this almost my whole life and was positively rewarded for this. But I soon learned that there was a lot that came with a high performance female in the military when you had males who did not want females in the military. Here I was trying to prove myself saying, I could be that soldier. I can do anything. I'm just as capable as the males. In fact, I wanted to be the 1st Navy SEALlette.

Dakota [: 00:12:33

Yeah.

Kim [: 00:12:35

Yeah. But when you have male drill sergeants that don't want you in the part of our company, but because he had the same type of part of our company, but because he had the same type of behavior, he was rotated out and another drill sergeant came in, but he had similar behaviors and thoughts of females in the military. And as soon as he found out that I was performing at this high level, he would put me in the running groups. And the 1st running group was group A and that's the fastest runners and they were all males. And then I would be put in that group with them. And he would humiliate me in front of them. He would call me to the front of the, to the formation and just say, All right, guys. We're gonna run like a girl today.

Kim [: 00:13:27

And Liska's leading this formation, so you're not gonna get much of a workout. And I was like, oh gosh, that's not fair because I'm running faster than half of these males. Yeah. And they can't keep up. And then he would just have these other comments that just didn't make me feel very, very good. I was like, why? It didn't make sense to me.

Dakota [: 00:13:48

Yeah. I mean, the purpose of the military, like, you're supposed to be a high performer, and here you are being punished and singled out for it because you're female. But you think they would welcome that, I guess. I don't know. That's wild.

Kim [: 00:14:03

Well, yeah. And then the other males in the formation saw that behavior of their higher up, the drill sergeant, so they just mimicked it.

Dakota [: 00:14:10

Yeah.

Kim [: 00:14:11

And so then they gave me a hard time as well. And I was just like, oh my gosh. I feel like I'm starting to be this target here for them. And it didn't feel good. There was this one time we were all in formation, and back then, we had female platoons and male platoons. And I remember they were trying to force me out of my all female platoon and told me to fall in with an all male platoon. And when I refused to abandon my all female platoon, I ended up in front leaning rest position, doing flutter kicks, doing front back goes and told if I didn't leave my female platoon and join a male platoon, that all the females in my, in my platoon were gonna drop with me. And I didn't want them to suffer.

Kim [: 00:14:57

I didn't want them to suffer at the same time. I didn't wanna abandon the female group. So again, I was confused on that. I did end up going after I got pretty tired of flutter kicking and doing the pushups and front back goes. I did end up going to a male platoon, but they booed me. They didn't want me there either. No. They were like, oh, you think you're better than everyone else? And I was like, oh my gosh.

Kim [: 00:15:19

I'm just doing what I'm told, and I don't even know what to do here. It seems like anything I do is not going to be conducive to this environment.

Dakota [: 00:15:28

Yeah. Do you know why they sent you over to that platoon? No.

Kim [: 00:15:32

I think they were just making a mockery of it. It was that male drill sergeant who this was like on a daily, when he would just humiliate me. And I just felt confused and felt like I, I was being put in uncompromising situations, which was causing me distress. And I just felt like it was unnecessary to target me with like nasty comments and ridicule me. And I felt like if we can just focus on the performance part and how that can add value to me as a soldier, and And then there was other drill sergeants that pulled me that wasn't they weren't even in my platoon. They weren't even in our company. They would pull me out of formation, and verbally and physically harass me. And they were just in disbelief that a female can score that high on the physical fitness tests.

Kim [: 00:16:28

And they just kept saying, oh, I need to see this. And then other drill sergeants would come over and they'd be like, no, no, there's no way a female could perform. You need to show us. They just didn't think that a female could get those numbers. And it really instilled in me that it was just unsafe to perform at a high level.

Dakota [: 00:16:45

And that's wild because that's what you're supposed to do in the military. Like, that's what the military is looking for is high performers. So how did that impact the rest of your military career? Because you stayed in until 2009.

Kim [: 00:16:59

Yeah. Well, I had a a break in service because eventually I got an honorable discharge just because I felt very unsafe in the environments that I was in. So I ended up getting an honorable discharge. And then when I was out, I was like, wait a second. This is something that means something to me. Like I have been trained so well as a combat medic. And I feel like being part of saving people that are going over to war was just so important to me. And so I was like, no, they're not going to get away with this.

Kim [: 00:17:31

Like, I want to be part of this. So I ended up going back into the military. I had the free fricking service, and then renewed my contract, and was assigned to a combat support Yeah. Thank you. I was both. So I got to be both enlisted and officer.

Dakota [: 00:17:51

That's amazing.

Kim [: 00:17:52

Yeah. Thank you. I was both. So I got to be both enlisted and officer and they both provide a tremendous opportunity and growth. I just found myself having some trauma from basic training and AITs I just found myself minifying myself to stay safe. Yeah. And I was given promotions and I was given opportunities to perform at a higher level. I was just so scared.

Kim [: 00:18:21

I found myself like in this freeze state, I would get very anxious and I was like, oh oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna have repercussions through my whole military career?

Dakota [: 00:18:32

Yeah. It sounds like you made yourself small and didn't take up the space that you deserved because of your experience in basic from being punished for being a high performer.

Kim [: 00:18:45

Yeah.

Dakota [: 00:18:45

I think it's great that you came back and you excelled, and you got those promotions, and you got those opportunities, and I think that's amazing.

Kim [: 00:18:55

Yeah. Thank you, Dakota. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It really, it really had an impact on me. I I was at that time, I didn't know really what was going on inside of me.

Kim [: 00:19:11

I was trying to stay safe. And so Yeah. Now that I went through counseling, I can look back and see it. But at the time, I remember just being so anxious, so frustrated. I was like, Oh my gosh. You know you're capable of this. Why are you not moving forward? I remember one of the majors saying to me, he's like, Liszka, are you afraid of success? And I was like, I mean, no. I don't know.

Kim [: 00:19:36

I'm not. I just there's a block and I can't figure it out.

Dakota [: 00:19:41

Yeah. Absolutely. So it sounds like you went to counseling to kind of help overcome that. Was there anything else you did?

Kim [: 00:19:50

Yeah. It took a long time. It wasn't until I filed my VA disability claim, which was maybe 2 years ago, and I had to relive the stories. And being out of the environment, I was able to see a bit more. And then with the help of my counselor, I was able to see a bit more and understand it. And I just realized that I normalized a lot of the events and didn't realize the impact that it had on me. I found myself feeling emotions of shame and guilt and unworthiness, and I just grew depressed and anxious. And then I isolated myself.

Kim [: 00:20:36

And, you know, at one point I feared for my life and I was just like, No, I knew I had to do something because I knew I was worth fighting for. So, yeah, the resiliency came when I found out that other women went through similar events and I was able to hear their stories and feel like I wasn't alone.

Dakota [: 00:20:57

Yeah. I think that's really powerful. Because a lot of times, we normalize it, and we don't think that anything's wrong with it until we get validated by similar women who have been through similar situations, and that validation is really important in telling your story too.

Kim [: 00:21:15

That's so true. That resonates so much with me. Getting counseling at the VA helped a lot. 1, because she was just able to help guide me. And 2, I learned that my story is not that uncommon amongst women. And so just having all of that together and then co creating the Revolaine retreat project with you to give other women a community where they can find safety and healing and companionship. I mean, I knew I needed it, so there had to be other women that needed it.

Dakota [: 00:21:51

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I'm a counselor for the VA, and, yeah, there's a lot of women who come to see us because of military sexual trauma and the post traumatic stress that comes from that trauma. So I'm glad that you reached out.

Kim [: 00:22:08

Aw. Thank you. Well, you've helped me. You helped me. And so I can't say enough about how Reveille Retreat Project has helped me, and then meeting you has helped me as well. And then all these retreats, and the women that we're meeting, and the fact that they are able to get vulnerable and tell their stories is just a, oh gosh, just like this all around beautiful commonality. And it just makes you feel a little bit more accepted, a little bit more safe, and that you have people that you can count on to help you through when you get triggered.

Dakota [: 00:22:49

Absolutely. And when you can get vulnerable, and, for some people, that's telling their story for the first time, I think that's where the healing starts.

Kim [: 00:22:59

I can't agree with you more. Yeah. And that's why us starting Dog Tag Diaries has really been helpful. I didn't realize how difficult it was gonna be to open up and tell a story, but it does feel lighter when you're able to get it out from inside Yeah. And just get those feelings and words out into the universe.

Dakota [: 00:23:20

Yeah. And I think people need to hear our stories. Obstacles that we have have to overcome, and I think it's really important that people hear our stories whether they're in the military or civilians.

Kim [: 00:23:36

I agree. It helps everyone be more compassionate towards one another.

Dakota [: 00:23:40

Absolutely. Yeah. And one

Kim [: 00:23:42

of the beautiful things is I have to say I no longer define myself by events that happened to me. I define myself now through this healing journey and what I'm doing to continue the healing process.

Dakota [: 00:23:58

Yeah. And it seems like you've really leaned into the military being part of your identity as well as far as, like, shaping you and who you are and how resilient you've become because a lot of women don't identify themselves as having served, whether they're currently serving or they are veterans. So I think that's really great that you've kinda leaned into that, and I think that's really helpful

Kim [: 00:24:34

finish my last couple of years, have my 20 years in, in the military. And I feel like I've kind of worked that out as well, saying, this is just something that I have to prove to myself, but I don't have to prove it by going back into the military. I feel like I'm proving it every day to myself just by the things that I am accomplishing.

Dakota [: 00:24:56

Absolutely. Yeah. You're an amazing woman.

Kim [: 00:25:01

Oh, thank you, Dakota.

Dakota [: 00:25:02

You're welcome. Thank you.

Kim [: 00:25:05

So are you.

Dakota [: 00:25:06

Thank you.

Kim [: 00:25:07

You're welcome.

Dakota [: 00:25:09

So if there is a military woman or a woman that's interested in joining the military, what advice would you give them? Well, services, what their missions are, and see if it aligns with their

Kim [: 00:25:26

what their missions are, and see if it aligns with their life mission. And what I mean by that is like, if somebody is, really wants to be a mom and stay at home mom, which is a beautiful thing, if that's how you, when I identify as a mother, which is one of the most wonderful things in the world, you just have to really look at your choice of going into the military because most likely you're gonna be deployed, and that is about 18 months of deployment, give or take a few. And with that comes, most of the time, PTSD. And then you have to think about your kids as well because it really affects them. So I feel like just weighing the benefits and risks of being in the military. Yeah.

Dakota [: 00:26:12

Yeah. That's really good.

Kim [: 00:26:13

You'll be presented with a lot of positive and negative scenarios. It's just learning to navigate through them and, and learning if it's really for you. Talk to other women that have been in the military or are still in the military. And again, yeah, just see if they align with your life mission.

Dakota [: 00:26:30

Yeah. That's really good advice. I like that. Thank you. Looking back, would you have joined the military if you knew what you know now?

Kim [: 00:26:40

That's tough because there was a lot of positives that came out of the military as well. If I would've known all of that back then, I wouldn't have joined. If I have had the knowledge that I do right now, I would not have joined. However, if it was a safer environment where I knew that if something did happen to me, that I can report it and something would happen to that person and it would provide that safe environment again, that I would do.

Dakota [: 00:27:07

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm currently serving, and I feel like we're getting better. The military culture is changing. The atmosphere is changing, and I think a lot more people are feeling comfortable coming forward. So I think they're getting there, but not quite there yet.

Dakota [: 00:27:26

Yeah.

Kim [: 00:27:26

It takes time. We're a small percentage of the military, so it'll just take time. But there's more women that are joining, so hopefully we can make a difference. And I see that there's a lot of nonprofits coming up and a lot of other projects that are being done for military women

Dakota [: 00:27:46

Yes. Absolutely.

Kim [: 00:27:47

To support us, yeah, and bring more awareness.

Dakota [: 00:27:50

Yeah. And there's counseling, you know, with the VA or a vet center for military sexual trauma. If anyone who's listening to this has experienced that, we encourage you to reach out and talk to someone about it. And you can always reach out to us, and we can direct you to some resources or just be here to hear you.

Kim [: 00:28:12

Oh, I love that, Dakota. Thank you.

Dakota [: 00:28:14

Yeah. So as we close, is there anything else you'd like to share or any last words?

Kim [: 00:28:22

If you're interested in being part of our community, definitely check out our Revyeline retreat project. And, if you're interested in being on our podcast and telling your story, reach out to us as well.

Dakota [: 00:28:35

Yeah. We'd love to hear your story. Alright. Thank you.

Kim [: 00:28:40

Thank you. Thank you for tuning into Dog Tag Diaries. We appreciate your willingness to listen and engage with these stories as we understand the challenge that comes with sharing and hearing them. Your support in witnessing the experience of our military women is invaluable. These stories are meant to inspire and provide meaning, and we hope they can help you find your own voice as well.

Dakota [: 00:29:08

If you or anyone you know are in need of immediate help, call line by dialing 988, then press 1. There are resources available to help and provide guidance during difficult times. Please visit our website, www.reveilleandretreatproject.org, to learn more about the Reveille and Retreat Project, including upcoming retreats for military women and resources. The link is in the show notes. We'll be here again next Wednesday.