Barefoot Vermont to Breaking Barriers: An Exploration on Life in the Military & Gender Equality -12

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Dakota [: 00:00:02

Growing up as a daring tomboy in rural Vermont, Doris never followed the beaten path. Her journey took her from tree climbing adventures to becoming a driving force for gender equality in the military.

Kim [: 00:00:14

In this episode, we dive into how Doris turned her challenges into a powerful mission to combat sexism in the Vermont National Guard. If you're looking for an inspiration on how one voice can make a difference, you won't wanna miss this story. Welcome to Dog Tag Diaries, where military women share true stories. We are your hosts, Captain Kim.

Dakota [: 00:00:40

And Captain Dakota. The stories you about to hear are powerful. We appreciate that you have joined us and are eager to learn more about these experiences and connect with the military women who are willing to share their stories in order to foster community and understanding.

Kim [: 00:00:57

Military women are providing valuable insight into their experiences, struggles, and triumphs. By speaking their truth, they contribute to a deeper understanding of the challenges they face and the resilience they demonstrate.

Dakota [: 00:01:11

We appreciate your decision to join us today to gain insights and knowledge from the experiences of these courageous military women. Thank you for being here.

Kim [: 00:01:28

In this episode of Dog Tag Diaries, Doris Sumner takes you on a journey from her roots in rural Vermont to her impactful career in the United States military, where she found her purpose in advocating for gender equality. Growing up as one of 6 kids with 5 cousins next door, she was a daring tomboy who wasn't afraid to challenge societal norms.

Dakota [: 00:01:50

Her journey took her from working on farms and joining the carnival to becoming a truck driver in the army and eventually a leader in combating sexism in the Vermont National Guard. This episode delves into Doris's experiences and the challenges she faced and how she turned them into a mission to create lasting pain.

Kim [: 00:02:11

So welcome, Doris. Thank you for being on our podcast.

Doris Sumner [: 00:02:15

Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.

Dakota [: 00:02:17

So how we like to start the podcast is kind of learning more about you and your childhood. So can you kind of tell us about how you were as a child?

Doris Sumner [: 00:02:27

Sure. Thanks. I like that. I like going back to childhood because I think our journey is really that's where it started. I grew up in the countryside of Vermont, and I was sort of a tomboy. I mean, I had Barbie dolls, but I really like playing with the matchbox cars and doing things my brothers were doing. And I wasn't really okay with the kind of boxes that they try to put boys in and girls in. So it seems like I was sort of a rebel.

Doris Sumner [: 00:02:54

Like, you want me to wear dresses? I don't wanna wear dresses. You want me to ask for a Barbie for Christmas? I would rather have a truck. It wasn't that I wanted to be a boy. I just didn't like the roles that they were trying to put me in. And we grew up in the country, so we were playing outside all day long, climbing trees, swimming in the brooks, building cabins, riding our bikes on the dirt roads. And there was a lot of us kids, so the parents were busy working and the kids were just we kinda hung out together and raised each other. And, yeah, good old days.

Dakota [: 00:03:27

Sounds like a fun childhood. Just all that, like, kind of freedom and being around other family members.

Doris Sumner [: 00:03:35

Yeah. We found ways to have fun, and then there was, like all the families back then had 5 or 6 kids, so it was kinda like we were kinda tribes, you know, going in tribes and doing different things around town. And I was probably getting more in trouble than I should have. And, again, my parents had already raised. You know, I was the second to the youngest, so we were kinda left up to our own devices, you know, and doing things that we probably shouldn't do. Started smoking and drinking very early on, and, yeah, that's what was going on. And I wasn't a very good student. I wasn't very focused.

Doris Sumner [: 00:04:11

Didn't really know didn't have any dreams of being any particular occupation. It was just my mother was a secretary, my father was a construction worker, and I definitely did not wanna be a secretary. I was just not going into that. So I took auto mechanics in high school, and I worked in automotive Sears Automotive Changing Tires, less my part time job. So, again, it was very nontraditional. Any roles that I could take, and as you said in the introduction, when the carnival came to down, when the fair came to down, I signed up and worked at the fair and took off with the fair after graduation. I was traveling around with them a little bit.

Kim [: 00:04:52

So what did you do in the fair?

Doris Sumner [: 00:04:54

Oh, which is kinda funny. I was working in a booth where you throw in the dime and you have to get it on the red dot, but you gotta have red all the way around. And so the person that's working has to run the microphone and just keep talking to get people in. And I was really good at it because the guy was like, just, he handed me the microphone, and I would just constantly talk and get people excited about coming in and throwing the dime to try to win the teddy bear. And yeah. So I thought, oh, maybe I could do this for a living. This is fun. Yeah.

Doris Sumner [: 00:05:29

I was very unfocused.

Kim [: 00:05:31

Well, it sounds like you had very little guidance as well.

Doris Sumner [: 00:05:35

Yeah. And, again, it wasn't that I had bad parents, but parents then you know, my parents were trying to survive, trying to make, you know, make a paycheck. They had divorced, and so we kinda all scattered around. And when I did leave with the fair, we went down the East Coast, and I was with my best friend, and I was kind of excited. I wanted them to let me drive the truck. It was a big box truck and they would not let me drive. So they put me in with this guy that they said, he falls asleep. So they said, keep talking and keep him awake.

Doris Sumner [: 00:06:07

And again, that's something I'm really good at. So, you know, he would just pretend that he was falling asleep if I stopped talking. So I just talked the whole way down the East Coast, but they would never let me drive the truck. So when I came back with my best friend, we were hanging out in the bars, like I said, totally not focused as to what I wanted to do. And we met an army recruiter, and he showed us the movies. And he's trying to scare us a little bit about the recruiters or the drill sergeant yelling at the kids. And, I was like, I'm up for it. I'll do it.

Doris Sumner [: 00:06:39

You know? I'm ready to go. My best friend was like, I'm not going. And she wanted to go on the fair. She wanted to go all the way down to Miami. And I was like, I am not going to Miami. I am going back to Vermont. I'm not gonna live on the road with these carneys. And, yeah.

Doris Sumner [: 00:06:54

So I joined the army, and she stayed in Vermont. And, yeah, I was very fearless. You know? If you think about 18 years old and getting in a box truck and going off of the fair and then coming back. And when we got home and I said to my mom, I'm joining the army. I mean, she wasn't even surprised at all. She was like, oh, okay. Yeah.

Kim [: 00:07:15

But you were kinda used to that lifestyle being outside most of the time. The way you played was almost like military training. Yeah. Climbing trees, but you're climbing ropes.

Doris Sumner [: 00:07:26

Yeah. I was just kind of a free spirit, a rolling stone, I guess. And so when I did talk to the recruiter, I was like, can I drive a truck? Will they teach me to drive a truck? Because I had wanted to drive the truck with the carny and, they were, oh, sure. We can drive you know, we can teach you to drive a truck. So I was so excited to leave my home when I was 18. The other thing is this December 1981, and off I went to Fort Dix, New Jersey to basic training, and that was where my AIT was gonna be to learn how to drive trucks. And I just think about that. Like, not really knowing where you're going, but taking that first step and getting on that Greyhound bus is is pretty fearless.

Dakota [: 00:08:06

Yeah. Absolutely. I remember that feeling. Yeah. It's it's something that always sticks with you.

Doris Sumner [: 00:08:13

Yeah. And I remember it was December 27th, so it was pretty close to New Year's Eve. And I remember being in the reception station on New Year's Eve, and we probably had only slept a couple hours, and they took those big trash cans and rolled them down the hallway, making as loud as noise they can, you know, telling us to get out of bed, get out of bed, you know, and scream Happy New Year, Happy New Year, you know, and just being scared.

Kim [: 00:08:37

Now get information and front back goes and screaming at us,

Doris Sumner [: 00:08:41

And, oh, everybody was running around, and everybody smelled. And, you know, people were half dressed. And it was just total chaos. And I was just like, what did I get myself into?

Kim [: 00:08:52

What did you get yourself into? Yeah. How was it? How was basic for you?

Doris Sumner [: 00:08:58

I think that because I had been such a free spirit, you know, I took every situation as kinda like a new adventure. So basic training was fine, and then they sent me down the block for AIT, truck driving school. You know, I had a good time there. And, again, I I kinda hung with the guys. I was a big beer drinker, and I tell that in my memoir. I talk about that, but I really kinda found my boy I don't know. I hung out with the boys, and I just drank beer, and that's kinda what I did. And if I had to go back and do it over again, I'd certainly do it differently, but that's what I did.

Doris Sumner [: 00:09:32

And I, you know, I found camaraderie. I found brotherhood. I found friendship, and I trusted them, you know, like the band of brothers they talk about. Then I left there, and they had me stationed Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. And so my brother who had joined the Air Force, he was like, well, that's crazy. You joined the army to travel and they send you to New England. That's where you're from. Yeah.

Doris Sumner [: 00:09:56

They didn't send me very far. He had joined the Air Force. They sent him to Texas, and then they sent him to Korea on his first duty station. So he was like, you should have joined the Air Force. I said, well, I wanted to be a truck driver. And he says, well, they have trucks in the Air Force too. You know?

Kim [: 00:10:13

But that's not what you think about. You think about planes with the air force.

Doris Sumner [: 00:10:16

It's just like yeah. So I got stationed at Aberdeen Program, Maryland, and that was a very, very mellow base. It wasn't a combat operations base. It was a testing ground where they lots of different equipment from gloves to tanks to armor. They were testing it, and they had soldiers behind the fence, security fence on different teams, just testing the material and keeping track of how well it stood up. And so I was in the truck driving unit, so we just drove trucks around in circles in the mud or on rocks or in rain, and we just drove them in circles and, you know, had to record, you know, the gas mileage, when we got flat tires, when thing the transmission broke, and that's pretty much what I did for 2 years 10 months as I drove in circles.

Kim [: 00:11:02

I feel like you would have had a really good time doing that.

Doris Sumner [: 00:11:05

Yeah. I mean, like I said, it was an easy job. I wasn't in a combat unit. I didn't have to get deployed or do operations out in the field or anything. It was all just you work your shift. You go behind the fence. You know? And, of course, being a beer drinker, we work night shifts. So we would get done at 4 o'clock in the morning, and then we'd start drinking.

Doris Sumner [: 00:11:24

And we'd drink till, like, noon, and then we'd fall asleep and have to go to work at 8 o'clock at night. It was a weird cycle and, probably not, like I said, the healthiest thing. But at that time, I was just a young truck driving, beer drinking, tomboy from Vermont having a blast. I still have friends from from back in those days. Oh, I bet you do. Yeah.

Kim [: 00:11:47

Were there a lot of females in your company?

Doris Sumner [: 00:11:50

Well, when I got there, there was only 3 women in my unit. I was in Alpha Company, and I write this in the book too that they were probably in their 20s you know, late twenties, early thirties, but I thought they were just old because they were married. They were settled down. They were serious. You know, one was a staff sergeant, and the other one was a sergeant. And then I think there was, like, a a sergeant first class. So there weren't very many women. So they bumped me in a headquarters unit with all the clerks, the females that were in administration occupations.

Doris Sumner [: 00:12:20

And then Alpha Company was right next door where all the guys were. So I was kind of alone. Like, I'd be over in the headquarters unit. I didn't know the women over there. Then I'd go over to Alpha Company and play pool and hang out in the day room, go to work and stuff. So it was isolating to be the only female that wasn't married in Alpha Company. Yeah.

Kim [: 00:12:42

So were the males respectful of you?

Doris Sumner [: 00:12:45

Well, when you're young, you're just kinda swimming with the fish. Right? So, I mean, if I probably look back at it now, I would say no. I wouldn't want my daughter to be treated like that, but it was, like, back then, and this was in the eighties. So what I write about in my book is the brotherhood. Like, I had brothers that were like, hey. You don't wanna go out with him. Or they tell that guy, hey. Stay away from her.

Doris Sumner [: 00:13:09

They were protective in that way. So did I get harassed? Did I experience sexual harassment and sexual assault? I did. But I also had a team of brothers that were protective of me and and taking care of me in that way too. But I and I set some things up for myself too because I drank a lot and I put myself in situations. So, yeah, it wasn't the perfect again, if I had to do it over again, I'd certainly be so mature. I'd save all my money too.

Dakota [: 00:13:36

Right. Yeah.

Doris Sumner [: 00:13:38

But you just kind of assimilate to the culture and you survive and you figure it out and you talk about that. You know? You put it in your backpack and you trudge on and you just go do the next thing. And I did get a boyfriend when I was there, so I was kinda settled down towards the last year. But then I broke up with him and I met a guy from Vermont and I got married, and he had joined active duty with station in Germany. So my last 6 months at my home station, I'm not a single gal anymore. My husband's over in Germany. So it was a very, very isolating and depressing time to be doing my last 6 months without my husband, who I did love at the time. And, you know, we were just back then, you don't have FaceTime or anything, so we're just writing letters back and forth.

Doris Sumner [: 00:14:24

And I did go to Germany, as a spouse with him over in, Kitzkin, Germany, and we were over there for a year drinking a lot of beer. I said I wasn't gonna drink any German beer until I got to Germany, and then I said, oh, this is pretty good. I think I could do it. So we got married and we came back to the States, and that's when my husband and I, we got divorced. And he joined the National Guard, and I had never heard about the National Guard before. I just thought military is active duty. So I said, well, that that guard sounds pretty good. So I joined the Vermont National Guard in my hometown in 1986.

Doris Sumner [: 00:15:02

And so I was, like, 25 years old or something. And that was at Camp Johnson in Colchester, Vermont. And I feel like I anchored there because I was there from 1986 to 2019. And my book is called Life at Camp because I really spent a lifetime growing up at Camp Johnson when I joined the guard.

Kim [: 00:15:22

Let's talk about that. Let's talk about your book. Your book is called Life at Camp Combating the Sexism We Tolerate and Why the Military Should Take the Lead.

Doris Sumner [: 00:15:30

Yeah. I'm really proud. I, towards the end of my career 2018, I had colleagues and mentors say, you know, you need to write a book about how the military hired you to diversify the force and have gender equality, and then they prevented you from doing it. Because what happened was I I came to Camp Johnson, this cocky, young, alcoholic, codependent farm girl.

Kim [: 00:15:57

And, I was like You're very aware.

Doris Sumner [: 00:15:59

Yeah. I was a truck driver in the army. You know, like, where do I sign? I'm gonna be in the guard. And they were like, woah, woah, woah, woah. You don't wanna be a truck driver in the National Guard. And they put me in the personal service company, which was a company of all women. And the only men in that unit were the men that were, like, in charge of supply and operations. But there was a female commander, female platoon leaders, and all females in the unit.

Doris Sumner [: 00:16:26

And what we did was we did all the clerical work for all the armor units in Vermont. So we would go to units and we'd set up our typewriters and we'd, you know, do the DD 793 and SGLI and all the carbon copy forms. And we were all young and we just had some fun spending the weekend out at the units and doing these stations. Chris is very different now, but so I changed from being a truck driver to admin, and then I got a full time job working at Camp Johnson in the human resource office. So that's where they do all the records for the full timers that support the guard. And so I went from this truck drive in, one of the guys, to one of the gals in the HRO in the human resource office doing all the typing and paperwork and the personnel records, and I learned how to have female friends for the first time in my life because I had always just been I hung out with the boys, and I didn't hadn't developed female friendships. And so when I joined the personal service company, it was like, I'm starting to get a little bit teared up here, but I was like, I just bonded with women. I'm like, these women are so cool.

Doris Sumner [: 00:17:41

You know? And they mentored me, and I became a very respected human resource person. And it took a while. But 10 years after I had joined the, human resource office, I became the equal opportunity officer. So the EO officer, as you all know, is a person who takes discrimination complaints. Now, I had been in training and I liked training. I liked doing training for the full timers. I'm kinda stuttering here a little bit, but when you're in the military, you have leadership because I outrank you. I tell you to pick up the boxes.

Doris Sumner [: 00:18:16

You pick up the boxes. But in the civilian world, I'm your boss, and I need you to pick up those boxes because it's really important that we have those boxes in the truck. So there's a different sort of leadership style since civilians have unions and they have rights, and you can't just yell at them and demand that they do something. So I was the training manager and I was putting on courses trying to develop supervisors on how to supervise civilians. And these are all soldiers. These are all combat warriors. And so they sorta didn't like me because I'm trying to teach them what they call soft skill training. And then I transitioned into equal opportunity officer.

Doris Sumner [: 00:19:00

So I had the first clients that I had were women saying these men are treating them disparately, disrespectfully. You know? And I was just, like, blown away that I had my own little bubble. I had my backpack of pain, but to be responsible for other people's pain and to try to advocate that they'd be treated equally and fairly, justly, and respectfully, It really became my mission. I just became consumed with trying to get it right. And by the way, I got sober, and I was a lot more mature taking my job very serious.

Kim [: 00:19:36

Congratulations on your sobriety.

Doris Sumner [: 00:19:38

Thank you.

Kim [: 00:19:39

That is not easy. So thank I'm very proud of you for taking care of yourself.

Doris Sumner [: 00:19:43

Yeah. I'm coming up, August 31st will be 35 years. So Wow. Yeah. Just shows how old I am.

Dakota [: 00:19:50

Good for you.

Kim [: 00:19:52

Big shout out to you. That's amazing.

Doris Sumner [: 00:19:55

Yeah. I'm still very, very, you know, active in recovery because it's not like you can read a chapter or graduate and then you know how to live sober. It's one day at a time being involved in helping others. That's how you maintain sobriety and recovery. Yeah. So my job became really serious, and I had been in the military 22 years. I was 40 years old. By then, I was on my 3rd husband, thermoplasts, and

Kim [: 00:20:22

I had to go Congratulations on that as well.

Doris Sumner [: 00:20:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I had to write a big book because there's just a lot to it. But, yeah, I grew up in the human resource office. And I think you all know in the military, the HRO, the human resource office, the personnel office, it's the hub of everything, the promotions, the retirements, the disciplinary actions, you know, the labor disputes. And so, you know, there I was for 30 years in the HRO, but when I was planted in EO and diversity, I was so passionate about fixing it because I was just like the sexual assault that I experienced, which was nonviolent sexual assault by my company Commander, I was recording a sexual assault of a woman. This happened to her.

Doris Sumner [: 00:21:08

And I'm like, this happened in 1982, and it's happening in 2016. Why is this still happening when we're warriors, when we are the supposed to be the epitome of what a US citizen should be and yet these sort of things are happening. So that's where I, not just myself, but my team and other women on the women's program, we really started looking into it was actually the Adjutant General said, why don't I have more female commanders? Like, women are 50% of the population. Why do I only have 12% females? Why don't I have any female commanders or command sergeant majors? So I really took this question to heart, and we really started doing surveys and out and abouts and interviews and then looking at our case studies. And when we presented our findings that it was the sexist nature of the military that was causing women to leave early or to underperform, oftentimes not feeling safe, that was the problem, that we needed more women and we needed to treat women with more respect. It was a hard sell to tell the men they need more women and it would be a better workforce. But that is my message. That's why I wrote a book, and I still stand by that today.

Kim [: 00:22:21

Well, being such an advocate for that, what were some of the issues that you ran into trying to support these women that were coming forward with the sexual assault and gender discrimination?

Doris Sumner [: 00:22:32

Yeah. The biggest thing, of course, in the military, you know that there's always a turnover. So every 2 years, we get a new human resource officer, a new new chief of staff, you know, our director of joint staff. Every 4 or 5 years, we get a new adjunant generals and new brigade commanders, and it seemed like every, you know, conversations would be sometimes they'd be really effective and healthy, and we'd have this understanding of what sexism looks like and what gender bias looks like and how to substantiate that sexual harassment and things. And so there was some really great leaders that were really taking it seriously. Then they'd leave, and a new one would come in, and it'd be like retraining. You know, the conversations would start all over again. And so that was the frustration was really almost it's hard to understand privilege when you have it, being a white woman from Vermont.

Doris Sumner [: 00:23:22

I don't really I I can never say that I know how it feels to be a black woman living in the Bronx or Los Angeles. Right? And so trying to explain to a man, and I and I so many times, especially with sergeant Majors, I would try to explain to them that a woman screaming and yelling at the troops gets an under non superior performance rating. But a man screaming at the troops and swearing gets a superior performance rating, and he says, that's not true. I'm like, I can show you the data that is true because they don't like women who yell at men. And it's the men that are rating the women. So those sort of biases that I was always I felt like I was always explaining myself. That was frustrating. You know? Like I said, there was really good generals who supported the strategies, and our strategy was to have a women's group to do diversity training on gender bias.

Doris Sumner [: 00:24:21

We had lean in groups where we'd have men and women sitting in a room and talk about how bias shows up at work or on the in the field and, you know, ways that we can support each other. And they were really great, but I was only reaching a very, very small portion of a very, very small state, you know, in a small brigade. But, you know, I got a lot of awards. I spoke at the highest levels. I spoke at the, chief of the National Guard Bureau Diversity Council. I spoke to the Dacowitz, Defense Advisory Council for Women in the Service, who reports to Secretary of Defense. So I was presenting our findings, our solution strategies at the highest levels, and receiving awards. The people with the power weren't saying, thanks for the information.

Doris Sumner [: 00:25:04

We're gonna put it in play. They were saying, thanks for the information. Here's an award. Have a nice retirement.

Dakota [: 00:25:10

Yeah. Like checking the box, Elma, because it was a requirement for them, kind of.

Doris Sumner [: 00:25:15

Yes. And when you're passionate about something, you wanna implement it. But how can a white male who has not experienced gender bias that has disrupted his career be passionate about implementing strategies to stop that? So a lot of very good men would say, I just don't see it. I just don't see the problem. And I'm like, I know you don't see the problem, but I'm telling you there is a problem.

Dakota [: 00:25:41

That's a problem.

Doris Sumner [: 00:25:42

Because we have a high prevalence of sexual assault, which I show them the data that you can't have sexual at sexism. Sexism is the attitude that one sex is superior to the other, and it sparks that spectrum of harm and disrespect. So sexism comes from this superiority complex, which often the masculine warrior identity gives them permission to say that they're better than us. And the APFT scores that used to score on gender and age, you know, just kind of fell right into saying that men were better because they had to run the 2 miles in 17 minutes, and women had all the time in the world to run 2 miles, so men were better. And so all of those sort of misinformation was what I was shouting from the rooftops is and that's why they said, you need to write a book.

Dakota [: 00:26:32

Yeah. Absolutely. You're doing all this good work, and sometimes it would fall on deaf ears and not get implemented or a second look.

Doris Sumner [: 00:26:40

Yeah. I'll just say I know I did make a difference. I mean, I've come to terms with, I think when I was in the fight, I thought I wanted the white flag to sit and say victory, you know, the mission accomplished banner. And today, in retrospect, I can see that very few people get that sort of victory. We're all usually just a part of the victory. And now I've learned about the suffragettes, you know, and many women that were buried who never saw the 19th amendment ratified, you know, but they fought for it. So yeah.

Dakota [: 00:27:12

Do you think that talking to leaders versus maybe the soldiers, do you think that would have proven anything? Mhmm.

Doris Sumner [: 00:27:22

Well, you said that I was, like, I was talking to the leaders, like, convincing the leaders about the bias and everything.

Dakota [: 00:27:28

Yeah. It sound like you did a lot of, like, leader training.

Doris Sumner [: 00:27:31

Yeah.

Dakota [: 00:27:32

Did you ever get the opportunity to talk to, like, the enlisted soldiers and stuff like that? Okay. How was that perceived?

Doris Sumner [: 00:27:39

In 2011, we had the first ever all female women's workshop. So I gathered all the women from the Air and Army Guard, and it was I had probably 80% of them at this conference. And a lot of them were so mad at me for putting on this women conference because the men were saying, oh, you girls, you go pluck like hands, and we'll stay back and do all the real work. And what I was trying to say to the women, like, we need to come together and unify our gender challenges. The the challenges that we have because we're women in a male dominated organization that's been historically masculine for, you know, centuries and present our findings to the male leadership on what they can do to help us change it. And so we have these 21 recommendations which mirrored what was going on nationally. And so but that was tough. There was a lot of women coming up to me and really just, like, you know, calling me a feminist and meeting it in a bad way.

Doris Sumner [: 00:28:36

You know? It was like, wow. And then we did another one in 2016, and I wanted it to be men and women. You know? I had fought to say, let's get the men sitting around the table. But that's in my book too. That was like the new general was like, no. Let's just get all the women together again. And it was kind of a repeat of 2011. It was very frustrating for me because they did it again.

Doris Sumner [: 00:29:00

In 2019, they had another all female women's conference. So, yeah. It's it's tough. Stuck to herd cats. Yeah. Yeah.

Kim [: 00:29:09

Oh, that's a great see? Herding cats. It's the military way.

Doris Sumner [: 00:29:13

Yeah. Yeah. It really is. It's like, oh my gosh.

Kim [: 00:29:16

True. Like, you had to be frustrated because, my gosh, if we can just have unity without that, you have, like, the individuals harmed, weakens combat units, that undermines military readiness.

Doris Sumner [: 00:29:30

Yeah. And we've heard so many stories of going down range, and I've never been to combat. My husband's been in combat several times, but I had friends that were in combat. And when you go down combat and you experience such intensity, it doesn't matter what color or what gender or what sexual orientation, and you have that bond and you have that respect for that person in uniform that said, I'll do it. I'll go, and they go and they perform. But back in when we're indoctrinating soldiers and we're at home station, the gender lines are just so often blatant, okay, that somehow the men are the tough ones, the men are the warriors, and the women are just helping out. And I just saw that in the language. The word the term you guys, I write about that in the book.

Doris Sumner [: 00:30:18

Yeah. It's just that's what I wanna change. I want people to see. I want to rebrand the military, not myself, but I'd like us all to rebrand the military as this non binary, non gender warrior. Is just a warrior, a human being warrior that is going down right instead of saying, yes, I will, and they're performing. And I know there's a lot of that happening, but there's still a lot of the prevalence of sex based harm often is more harmful to the women. I know it happens to men too, but it's generally a disrespect for what's feminine, what's outside the masculine warrior identity. Yeah.

Kim [: 00:30:59

So your book, we can get where?

Doris Sumner [: 00:31:02

Okay. So I did publish my book last November, and it's available on Amazon or at bookstores, life at camp, combating the sexism we tolerate and why the military should take the lead. And it was endorsed by the 1st female Adjutant General in the United States history. Her name was Martha T. Rainville. She was from the state of Vermont. She served from 1997 to 2006. So when I was appointed as the state diversity manager and EO manager, it was 2000 the end of 2004.

Doris Sumner [: 00:31:31

So I didn't really work for her all that long before really gaining my footing and seeing myself as a key staff officer. So I really was reporting to the human resource office, not the adjutant general. But towards the end of my career, I was more engaged with the adjutant general. And I but I, always kept in contact with her, and she worked with me as we tried to formulate bills for gender equality accountability, like holding the National Guard accountable to recruit, retain, and promote women because we work on what we measure. And even though we have EO reports and we tell everybody how many what the majority is and what the minority is and gender and race and all that, they weren't really working on it. They were just sending up the reports. And year after year, the percentages stayed the same. And so, we were trying to get the Agit General to be more accountable to changing those numbers by true actions.

Doris Sumner [: 00:32:27

And, so she's been a great supporter of the book, and I have other reviews on my website. I'd like to say that too. It's all about ego.com. And my And I love that platform. And when I was coming up with my business name, Empowering Gender Opportunities, it just happened to spell out ego. And ego is the Oh, no. Yeah. And ego is the sense of self.

Doris Sumner [: 00:32:53

It's how one feels about themselves. And I would say often that we know ego maniacs who think too much of themselves. And so they give themselves permission to be disrespectful to others because they're better. But there's also people who don't think enough themselves and they feel unworthy. And oftentimes, they're taking these beatings, these humiliations, and putting them in their backpack. And I talk a lot about that in my book of how we we learn to take humiliations, to take pain, and to take tragedy, and put it in the backpack and trudge on and keep marching. And we need to find that safe space to unload that backpack and free ourselves of trauma and hurt and pain and humiliations. And so I think that's my message.

Doris Sumner [: 00:33:39

With life at camp, it's not just about the problem. It's let's find a solution so we can lighten the burden. I don't wanna put a heavy backpack on my granddaughter if she says I wanna join the military. You have to acclimate to the military culture, and it's tough, and there's a lot. There's a lot of wonderful camaraderie and adventures that can happen for soldiers and warriors, but we shouldn't have to carry unnecessary pain of sexism and sex based harm. And, you know, humiliation was one of the things that always teared me up when women would come to me and talk about how they love their job. They love logistics or engineer or whatever job they were in, but they did not like being discounted and not validated and just they just felt like I have other things I can do with my life, and then we'd lose them.

Dakota [: 00:34:28

Yeah.

Doris Sumner [: 00:34:28

They get out.

Dakota [: 00:34:29

I talk to women veterans every day whose career was cut short because they have experienced sexism, being sexually assaulted, and they always have that regret. And they wonder, like, what their career could have been in the military, but they you know, it wasn't the place for them, they felt, because of those things that were going on. And so it's sad to see them because they're solid women. They have a lot to contribute.

Doris Sumner [: 00:34:55

Think about how much we lost. You know? And I think that so many women that I watch, you know, retire or walk out. And I wrote a a poem. It's called my the light on my shadow box. And a friend of mine, we we kinda wrote it together because she went to ROTC and she was gonna be an officer, but they didn't give her a slot, so she took an enlisted position and she retired as a E-8. But a lot of guys that she was in ROTC retired as Foburg Colonels. And I retired as a chief warrant officer 4, went up to E-6, and then I transferred to a warrant officer. And, you know, I do appreciate the path and the experiences that I had, but I wanted to be a sergeant major truck driver.

Doris Sumner [: 00:35:36

That's really what I wanted to be. You know? And so the light of my shadow box talks about that. There's just so there's so many women that we lose, great women warriors, that we lose their talent and their expertise and their in their dreams because of sexism, because of this attitude. And it's just it's pervasive. And it's hard to talk about what's dysfunctional about the military without seeming anti military. Because I'm pro military. I love the military, and I love what it offers. I love what it stands for.

Doris Sumner [: 00:36:09

I love what we accomplish. But I want women to have the equal access to all of the good stuff too without having to carry that extra weight. And I know that there's men that are survivors and have had tragedy happen to them too, so it's not like I don't care about the men. I just focus on the women because I see that the men that are harmed are often harmed because they're not masculine enough, because they're not fitting into this box that they're supposed to be in, and we need to, like, eliminate that these expectations around what's feminine and what's masculine and just what's warrior? What's greatness? What's professionalism look like? And in my book, I say the military should take the lead because today, the military is the most trusted institution in America. You see somebody in uniform in the Walmart, and you say thank you for your service because you really mean it. You're like, wow. This person said I will. And we trust them more than the politician that we see in Walmart, right, or the police officer that we see in Walmart.

Doris Sumner [: 00:37:12

So the military should model what right looks like when it comes to treating human beings. And so when we see this report that comes out every year from the sexual assault prevention and response program that things are getting worse, it's just so disheartening because we should be a beaming light of what respects looks like, you know, when it comes to that. And that's why I just made it my mission. I feel like that's what I learned at Camp Johnson was this tomboy that came out of the country. I just wanna make it better for women.

Kim [: 00:37:43

I love that. I feel like you have. I feel like you are a warrior on that path.

Doris Sumner [: 00:37:50

Still a little bit.

Kim [: 00:37:52

We all do our parts. Right? Right. You pass it on to someone else.

Doris Sumner [: 00:37:57

Yeah. That's what I say. You know, everything matters. Every person that marched in the sixties for civil rights or the women's movement or all the suffragettes that marched pamphlets around in 1800s and 1700s, everything that you do for the right reason matters to the ultimate goal that we might never see, but it matters that we're doing it. And so I had to come to terms with that. I found some healing through writing the memoir that although I didn't get a mission accomplished banner, I did my part. And so I feel worthy of my retirement. I have a great military retirement.

Doris Sumner [: 00:38:32

My husband's a combat. You know, he has a military retirement. We have our federal retirement because we work full time. And so I I feel pretty good about staying home and getting a retirement check, but I had to write the book.

Kim [: 00:38:45

You should. Well, I am curious if you have your poem memorized.

Doris Sumner [: 00:38:50

I don't. It's really long one, but it's on my website, so you have to check it out.

Kim [: 00:38:54

Oh, okay. Good. Okay. Yes.

Doris Sumner [: 00:38:56

It's called The Light on My Shadow Box. Yeah. It's a really long one because I talk a lot. It's just what I'm known for. That's why my book is 622 pages.

Dakota [: 00:39:07

Well, you have a lot to say.

Doris Sumner [: 00:39:08

And I said it would have been 1200 if I didn't have it here.

Dakota [: 00:39:11

The all important stuff.

Doris Sumner [: 00:39:13

Very important. We felt pretty good about what we took out and what we left in, and, you know, we worked on it for 3 years. And, yeah, there's a lot in there, but it's not just a problem. It's the solution strategies too and some hope.

Dakota [: 00:39:27

So I know you mentioned your granddaughter. So how we usually like to close our podcast is asking what advice you would have for maybe your granddaughter who wants to join the military or any other woman.

Doris Sumner [: 00:39:41

Yeah. I've I've listened to your podcast, and I love that question. And I definitely would say, we need more women. We need more great women. So do not hesitate. It's hard for me to say, don't hesitate to join an institution that has a high prevalence of sex based harm. But join, and then hold them accountable to treat you respectfully. And I think we said it at the beginning.

Doris Sumner [: 00:40:06

Find your voice. Find somebody to tell. If you are feeling like you're not being respected or you're having disparate treatment or gender bias or being sexually harassed or anything, find somebody to tell and hold them accountable for what they promise you. When you say you're gonna join the military, they promise you all the army values, honor and dignity, respect, selfless service, courage. Like, hold them accountable for that. And, yeah, you'll make a difference. Like, I would love to have an overflow. I would love them to be complaining about all the women at the recruiting station that wanna join and just freaking out.

Doris Sumner [: 00:40:42

Right? You know? That's what I would love to see. That's my dream because there are very, very many great warriors in there now, both men and women and any identity, and we just need more really good people holding the military accountable to what it says that it stands for. And, yeah. That's what I say.

Kim [: 00:41:02

Dora, you are so passionate about your mission, and it's truly inspiring how you transformed challenging experiences and the positive outcomes. And, like, I mean, you've developed equal opportunity and diversity programs, writing your book, launching a diversity consulting business.

Doris Sumner [: 00:41:22

Yes. I'm working on that. It's really after 36 years working for the government and then going out in corporate world is definitely a change of scenery and some lessons that I'm learning, but I've learned everything matters. Just keep trudging.

Kim [: 00:41:36

Yeah. And, like, day by day, congratulations on your sobriety.

Doris Sumner [: 00:41:41

Thank you. Thank you.

Kim [: 00:41:42

You've not only improved your own life, but also made a significant impact for others. And you really, like, have made a path for women in the military. So we appreciate you and your passion to continue to do this. Thank you for tuning into Dog Tag Diaries. We appreciate your willingness to listen and engage with these stories as we understand the challenge that comes with sharing and hearing them. Your support in witnessing the experience of our military women is invaluable. These stories are meant to inspire and provide meaning, and we hope they can help you find your own voice as well.

Dakota [: 00:42:24

If you or anyone you know are in need of immediate help, call the crisis line by dialing 988, then press 1. There are resources available to help and provide guidance during difficult times. Please visit our website www.reveilleandretreatproject.org to learn more about the Reveille and Retreat Project, including upcoming retreats for military women and resources. The link is in the show notes. We'll be here again next Wednesday. Keep finding the hope, the healing, and the power in community.